The Enlightenment

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
First of all Atheism isn't a doctrine. It doesn't instruct anything. It only says that a person doesn't believe in God. It doesn't tell them how they should live. It doesn't tell them that they should be rational or good. But religions do exactly that. They instruct you on HOW TO LIVE and believers live as they think the doctrine instructs them to.
But ......if it’s an individual issue, it doesn’t matter what’s a doctrine or not?

Religion doesn’t indoctrinate, people do. If religion was doing this, how’d the rest of us escape it? That’s my only point.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
But ......if it’s an individual issue, it doesn’t matter what’s a doctrine or not?

Religion doesn’t indoctrinate, people do. If religion was doing this, how’d the rest of us escape it? That’s my only point.
That's an argument you are going to lose and you are going to lose big.
While on an individual level it my vary how deeply they become indoctrinated and yes an individual is ultimately responsible for their actions, its just an undeniable fact that religion's entire game plan is indoctrination in that religion's beliefs.
And indoctrination isn't a dirty word. A whole lot of groups/organizations/parents do it.
Ive been indoctrinated, you've been indoctrinated, just about darn near everybody has been indoctrinated in way or another.
The 10 commandments aren't a person and yes its just a bunch of words that cant force you to become indoctrinated but you are taught by Christianity that those words are what you are supposed to follow.
Indoctrination is how you reject all the other gods but believe in yours. You didn't prove that no other gods exist or that other gods are "lower" than yours, you were indoctrinated to believe that.
 

Israel

BANNED
That all works fine for religion, and may even be in some way applicable to what is often called "christian religion". That is, if by legerdemain the christian may be conned into accepting (and agreement to) some worldly application and identification with/of a caricature commonly identified as the "christian fundamentalist". God knows what this may range from, and to.

But the christian has no avatar. He has nothing the world can identify, nor that he would care to offer, in its presumption as the "more fundamental" (or less) representation of Jesus Christ.

This does not at all mean I doubt the man's appraisal of what is (by an affection) "better" to him who may say "I esteem such and such "of a sort of" christian/muslim/hindu/ to be better than some other sort"

But, not being able to make heads or tails of Jesus Christ it (the world) has no enlightenment at all as to what is "fundamental" to, or of, Him.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
That's an argument you are going to lose and you are going to lose big.
While on an individual level it my vary how deeply they become indoctrinated and yes an individual is ultimately responsible for their actions, its just an undeniable fact that religion's entire game plan is indoctrination in that religion's beliefs.
And indoctrination isn't a dirty word. A whole lot of groups/organizations/parents do it.
Ive been indoctrinated, you've been indoctrinated, just about darn near everybody has been indoctrinated in way or another.
The 10 commandments aren't a person and yes its just a bunch of words that cant force you to become indoctrinated but you are taught by Christianity that those words are what you are supposed to follow.
Indoctrination is how you reject all the other gods but believe in yours. You didn't prove that no other gods exist or that other gods are "lower" than yours, you were indoctrinated to believe that.
My view of indoctrination is the teaching that Ambush is speaking of. The teaching to fly planes into a building.

I’m not taught that I have to follow those commandments anymore than I’m taught not to steal a candy bar because it’s illegal.

I guess that is indoctrination, just not the impression I got from what he was eluding to.

Or, more or less a different / extreme level of indoctrination, that’s basically driven back to a man / leader, etc.
 
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WaltL1

Senior Member
My view of indoctrination is the teaching that Ambush is speaking of. The teaching to fly planes into a building.

I’m not taught that I have to follow those commandments anymore than I’m taught not to steal a candy bar because it’s illegal.

I guess that is indoctrination, just not the impression I got from what he was eluding to.

Or, more or less a different / extreme level of indoctrination, that’s basically driven back to a man / leader, etc.
anymore than I’m taught not to steal a candy bar because it’s illegal.
It became illegal because way back when man decided it really sucked to have your stuff stolen. So it was decided to indoctrinate/teach others stealing is bad. Since bad isn't convincing enough now theres a punishment for it.
that’s basically driven back to a man / leader, etc.
Or a group that uses men and leaders to do the indoctrinating.
Jesus, Apostles, Preachers, CEOs, Drill Instructors, Teachers, books... all doing the indoctrinating on behalf of the group/organization/society who tells them what to indoctrinate/teach.
And yes individuals too. Would Germans have come up with on their own that Jews needed to be exterminated if it wasn't for Hitler? Probably not.
But its all indoctrination.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
It became illegal because way back when man decided it really sucked to have your stuff stolen. So it was decided to indoctrinate/teach others stealing is bad. Since bad isn't convincing enough now theres a punishment for it.

Or a group that uses men and leaders to do the indoctrinating.
Jesus, Apostles, Preachers, CEOs, Drill Instructors, Teachers, books... all doing the indoctrinating on behalf of the group/organization/society who tells them what to indoctrinate/teach.
And yes individuals too. Would Germans have come up with on their own that Jews needed to be exterminated if it wasn't for Hitler? Probably not.
But its all indoctrination.
I can see what you’re getting at. Sometimes I’m too hard headed to be stubborn.

Different from what I thought Ambush was getting at. But I see his point, too.
 

ambush80

Senior Member
That all works fine for religion, and may even be in some way applicable to what is often called "christian religion". That is, if by legerdemain the christian may be conned into accepting (and agreement to) some worldly application and identification with/of a caricature commonly identified as the "christian fundamentalist". God knows what this may range from, and to.

But the christian has no avatar. He has nothing the world can identify, nor that he would care to offer, in its presumption as the "more fundamental" (or less) representation of Jesus Christ.

This does not at all mean I doubt the man's appraisal of what is (by an affection) "better" to him who may say "I esteem such and such "of a sort of" christian/muslim/hindu/ to be better than some other sort"

But, not being able to make heads or tails of Jesus Christ it (the world) has no enlightenment at all as to what is "fundamental" to, or of, Him.

That's just an assertion with absolutely nothing to back it up.
 
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