The jehovah witness ladies came knocking today...

[kmh1031]

It may seem strange to us.... but that was the rage back in the day of Romans and gladiators and fight to the death.
Drinking blood was the “In” thinly to do.

Read some of the ancient history of how these ( non christian) people lived and what they did...
The caution was not to get caught up in these things and defile oneself by getting involved in these “sporting events”

 

[kmh1031]

1gr8bldr
I certainly understand your concerns and stand and respect it.

I might suggest more research on the matter and consider other views of ours u do agree with, and as u continue to advance in ur understanding (as we all need to do)
Perhaps the light will get brighter as it continues with me and any who seek accurate knowledge.

 

[1gr8bldr]

Context can be seen on how they view blood. It was extremely offensive that Jesus sai

It may seem strange to us.... but that was the rage back in the day of Romans and gladiators and fight to the death.
Drinking blood was the “In” thinly to do.

Read some of the ancient history of how these ( non christian) people lived and what they did...
The caution was not to get caught up in these things and defile oneself by getting involved in these “sporting events”

The context that the writers were writing about may have been for another time period, as is lots of the bible, however the context as it was written and intended at the moment, was not sporting events, was not human blood.

 

[1gr8bldr]

The context that the writers were writing about may have been for another time period, as is lots of the bible, however the context as it was written and intended at the moment, was not sporting events, was not human blood.

This is incorrect. It can not be for another time as if we would later understand the correct intended meaning. The context is for then under a certain issue. The Gentiles were being accepted into Christianity. However, they falsely assumed that they should follow the laws of the Jews from which Christianity evolved. So a committee was gathered to discuss this, of which Peter said, we should not put on them a yoke of which we were not able to bear. So they thought about it and determined that they should refrain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood [referring to those animals,] from strangled meat/blood and from sexual immorality. One could say then, that sexual immorality is still a sin therefore the blood must also be the same, however the context was never human blood. Nor was it transfused into the blood. JW's have every right to hold to any and every belief they have. However, to say this particular belief is from the bible is incorrect. It's clearly not, yet held to tightly by traditions.

 

[transfixer]

This is incorrect. It can not be for another time as if we would later understand the correct intended meaning. The context is for then under a certain issue. The Gentiles were being accepted into Christianity. However, they falsely assumed that they should follow the laws of the Jews from which Christianity evolved. So a committee was gathered to discuss this, of which Peter said, we should not put on them a yoke of which we were not able to bear. So they thought about it and determined that they should refrain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood [referring to those animals,] from strangled meat/blood and from sexual immorality. One could say then, that sexual immorality is still a sin therefore the blood must also be the same, however the context was never human blood. Nor was it transfused into the blood. JW's have every right to hold to any and every belief they have. However, to say this particular belief is from the bible is incorrect. It's clearly not, yet held to tightly by traditions.

The problem with the Witnesses beliefs are that they originated with one man's interpretation of the Bible, and then were modified by another man's interpretations, and have been further modified by the higher up members of the Watchtower Society, these are people making these interpretations, people just like everyone else, and yet they rule these beliefs over the whole organization. This is not a centuries old religious organization, its only about 150yrs old, and vastly different now than it was when originated,

My problem with the organization is their beliefs have caused families not to be close, parents not to have much to do with sons and daughters,, brothers and sisters not to associate with each other, so on and so forth, and its virtually always the person that belongs to the Witness organization that will not associate with the family member who does not belong.

I was raised in the organization when I was young, when I was old enough to think for myself I started questioning things, you aren't supposed to do that,,, I chose not to follow that path in my late teens early twenties, because I saw much hypocrisy in the congregations, many who professed to be what they were not, and I still know many who fall into that same category, as I mentioned in the past, I have family members who belong to it to this day, I have watched relatives die as a result of the " no blood " issue, I have relatives that live close to me that I never talk with unless they "need automotive help " , not because I don't want to talk with them, but because I know about the "truth" and rejected it, they aren't supposed to associate with me. I know things about those same relatives that are in direct conflict with witness beliefs, yet they are looked upon with good favor in the organization. There are some good people in the witness organization, just as there are good people in Baptist, Methodists, and Catholic, etc,etc, yet the Witnesses don't want their people to associate with any other religions, unless they are trying to preach to them, Its almost like they are afraid their members might discover a different viewpoint ? Much like cults we have seen, their members are discouraged from thinking for themselves, they are just supposed to believe what the organization says to believe.

I grew up being told not to associate with " worldly people " not to marry someone in the "world" , I didn't follow that ,,, I have friends in the " world" who I trust with my life,, and have trusted with my life,,,, I never had anyone in the witness organization I could trust like that, and still don't know anyone in that organization I would trust to that level.

The witness organization has just as many hypocrites and pretenders as any other organization, but yet they profess to be the only " true " religion, even though they weren't in existance until 1870, and really not until the 1930's

Yes, I am tainted towards the witnesses, but it is all from personal experience, and when you dig into the organization you will find the Society's lawyers do their best to keep various members wrong doings out of the news, especially when it comes to child abuse and molestation, they basically are guilty of the same thing the Catholic church has been guilty of for years. While they might be small in number given the amount of members, the cases exist, and they are kept out of the limelight,

 

[Artfuldodger]

Would you agree that "abstain from blood" is in the current context of eating.... AND... as in regards to perception. Because we all know that these animals that were used in a sacrificial manner, is not applying to us. much on this from Paul, however, the weak, the babe in Christ, might see you partake and it possibly hurt his faith because he does not yet have the spiritual freedom that a more mature might have. So, several points, the context is animals blood, the context is eating, and the wild card is that in the NT, it is mentioned because of the perception of it, rather than the actual. ? I should point out that my interest in this conversation is not to win. I like to know the go to responses of the debate, both sides.

I see a lot of things such as this related to Pagan worship or the worship of false gods. A lot of what Paul was relating to was the rituals of the false worship. So maybe it's more about the relation to drinking blood and false worship than to eating Blood Pudding.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Context can be seen on how they view blood. It was extremely offensive that Jesus sai

The context that the writers were writing about may have been for another time period, as is lots of the bible, however the context as it was written and intended at the moment, was not sporting events, was not human blood.

Could we view homosexuality in that same light? Perhaps as it was related to temple prostitutes, Pagan orgies, pedestery, etc.?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Eating, or infusing is the same as it accomplishes the sam purpose ....

Smoking or injecting nicotine via a patch is putting it on the body..

Eating or getting nourishment via IV accomplishes the same thing.
Eating blood or having a blood transfusion is the same as well.

Medically speaking and not scripturally, there are many alternatives to blood transfusions if one is in the hospital that in many cases saves the life, builds blood and is Munich more safe.

Research bloodless surgery if interested and you will see that many hospitals and cutting edge Drs are going this route for many health benefits to the patient

Reminds me of someone who doesn't "drink" alcohol, taking an alcohol enema!

 

[Artfuldodger]

I appreciate you thoughts and have heard that before in discussion of blood.
Blood

Gods law on blood clearly extended to more than animal blood but also any and all blood.

God gave to Noah and which applies to all his descendants makes it wrong for anyone to eat blood, that is, to use the blood of another creature to nourish or sustain one’s life.

Doing some research, on blood later in the 1st century, Tertullian in his Apology showed how the early Christians reasoned on the matter to abstain from all blood.

So today it is recognized that if this prohibition applies to animal blood, it applies with even more force to human blood based on the sanctity of Human Blood.
It includes “any blood at all.” Leviticus 3:17

Arguments to the effect that the prohibition on the use of blood issued by the early Christian governing body only dealt with animal blood and certainly surely does include Human blood fall short of the ancient evidence.

It could be because they are not be familiar with the blatant misuse of Human blood at the time of The Apostles writings

But one cannot ignore the repeated scriptures to abstain from blood... clearly means animal and human by the anointed Apostles.


How do we know this.... what was going on the ..
Note this, In ancient Rome, which dominated the Mediterranean world in the first century, spectators at the gladiatorial contests would rush into the arena after the fight and suck the blood streaming from the neck of the vanquished gladiator.

Some from among the Scythians reportedly ate their dead relatives.

Treaties were made among some peoples by mutually drinking a portion of each other’s blood; and human blood caught in the hand and eaten was used to seal initiation into the rites of the pagan goddess Bellona.

So when the apostles, under direction of the holy spirit, said that Christians were to keep themselves from blood, (Acts 15:29 for one) they clearly had in mind both animal and human blood too.

What was God's big deal about blood to begin with? I guess God got the ball rolling with animal skins and it went from there with his blood sacrifices. Up and until the death of Jesus which is and of itself a blood sacrifice.

Does the JW teachings delve into this topic?

 

[Artfuldodger]

What about partaking of "cooked" blood? To be safe, why not become a vegan? Could one partake of blood parts? If I was going to be legalistic about it, I would be a vegan.
Does one have to teach their children not to lick their cuts and wounds? Any special guidelines on menstruating?

 

[kmh1031]

Granted we are not a perfect organization, as we are made up of imperfect people.

However we forensically study the bible, the examples of the Israelites; right/wrong actions, and what got them in trouble and gods favor.
We also study the apostles, Jesus, and the early Christians, and the congregations they preached to (Corinth, Thessalonica and more) and their issues internally.


To contradict your comments, we absolutely do not follow any man, nor worship him, as we work hard to follow in Jesus Footsteps, and not a man who "invented the religion".
Rewrite? no, again, please compare our beliefs to those in ancient times, early Christians and what they believed, took part in, and did not.

JW's are a restoration of true worship, based on the bible, and of the early Christians which we study fervently, and work to apply all of his teachings, in our everyday life.

Thus the mingling of politics into the church, celebration of pagan holidays, and non-biblical truths that are rampant today in many religions are not part of our teachings.

Compare our teachings to those of the early Christians and you will see it is a restoration.


Yes, hypocrisy to a small extent does exist as with other organizations, as it did in the early Christian congregation.

Note Acts 20: 30 From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
People inside and outside the congregation will do this.

Jesus said he came not to unite, but to being division between, father daughter, mother son, etc. (not exact wording) What did he mean?

Jesus meant that, his teachings would separate family’s...because of previous beliefs that were incorrect the family held on to, vs changing to the truth of his teachings. This would cause the divisions...and it surely has, as indicated in your comments.

Yes we after much discussion, meetings, may see the need to disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers in the congregation, to keep it clean, just as Paul encouraged those congregations to do, and to "quit associating with them"

It serves as a discipline to the wrong doer, and also a protection to the congregation.

The bible and its teachings are correct, and those that adhere to them, truly are Jesus disciples.
Those that chose not to, is clearly their choice.

Note Paul, Peter, and Timothy's letters to the congregation and the many issues they had, corrections needed, and many listened.

Imperfect people have these issues today, and yes, inside the JW organization.

But it is not rampant as you may have indicated, and with love, encouragement, discussions, talks from the platform backed with scriptural evidence, study many of these are resolved just as in ancient times. We strive daily to put on the “new personality” and for some, that takes a while…

SO sorry for your personal experience you noted in your comments.

FYI: . I converted from being a Baptist, and wife Methodist, to JW's a few years back.

I can tell you this, since I became a JW I have seen much love, and working hard to adhere to the bible teachings, preaching, here and thus very happy with the course I have chosen, even though, there are rifts, imperfection, some hypocrisy, on a much smaller scale than you may have experienced.

 

[1gr8bldr]

The problem with the Witnesses beliefs are that they originated with one man's interpretation of the Bible, and then were modified by another man's interpretations, and have been further modified by the higher up members of the Watchtower Society, these are people making these interpretations, people just like everyone else, and yet they rule these beliefs over the whole organization. This is not a centuries old religious organization, its only about 150yrs old, and vastly different now than it was when originated,

My problem with the organization is their beliefs have caused families not to be close, parents not to have much to do with sons and daughters,, brothers and sisters not to associate with each other, so on and so forth, and its virtually always the person that belongs to the Witness organization that will not associate with the family member who does not belong.

I was raised in the organization when I was young, when I was old enough to think for myself I started questioning things, you aren't supposed to do that,,, I chose not to follow that path in my late teens early twenties, because I saw much hypocrisy in the congregations, many who professed to be what they were not, and I still know many who fall into that same category, as I mentioned in the past, I have family members who belong to it to this day, I have watched relatives die as a result of the " no blood " issue, I have relatives that live close to me that I never talk with unless they "need automotive help " , not because I don't want to talk with them, but because I know about the "truth" and rejected it, they aren't supposed to associate with me. I know things about those same relatives that are in direct conflict with witness beliefs, yet they are looked upon with good favor in the organization. There are some good people in the witness organization, just as there are good people in Baptist, Methodists, and Catholic, etc,etc, yet the Witnesses don't want their people to associate with any other religions, unless they are trying to preach to them, Its almost like they are afraid their members might discover a different viewpoint ? Much like cults we have seen, their members are discouraged from thinking for themselves, they are just supposed to believe what the organization says to believe.

I grew up being told not to associate with " worldly people " not to marry someone in the "world" , I didn't follow that ,,, I have friends in the " world" who I trust with my life,, and have trusted with my life,,,, I never had anyone in the witness organization I could trust like that, and still don't know anyone in that organization I would trust to that level.

The witness organization has just as many hypocrites and pretenders as any other organization, but yet they profess to be the only " true " religion, even though they weren't in existance until 1870, and really not until the 1930's

Yes, I am tainted towards the witnesses, but it is all from personal experience, and when you dig into the organization you will find the Society's lawyers do their best to keep various members wrong doings out of the news, especially when it comes to child abuse and molestation, they basically are guilty of the same thing the Catholic church has been guilty of for years. While they might be small in number given the amount of members, the cases exist, and they are kept out of the limelight,

Not that I would assume all experiences to be as yours was, I still appreciate the honest experiential assessment.

 

[Artfuldodger]

One positive That I see in their Churches is that Blacks and Whites worship together. That's not really a tradition in America. Just one aspect within promoting diversity. Most of the Witnesses I see in my neighborhood are mixed about 50-50.

I think some of those mega-churches or newer non-denominational Churches are kind of mixed as well.

 

[1gr8bldr]

I have always wondered about the name "Jehovah Witnesses". It imply's that you are a witness for Jehovah. However, since I can't assume that I would know about your witnessing, I wonder, what other paths does your witness conversations take? From my perspective, it goes quickly to who Jesus is. But, that may not be but a percent of your encounters?. And I will say, At first, before the conversations goes to this, the intent seems to be on life.... opening the door to Jehovah.

 

[kmh1031]

Great discussion, and questions.
The name comes from Isa 43:10: “You are my witnesses,”a declares Jehovah,“Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me*

The bible clearly shows that God has a people....we specifically know this based on his words in Revelation 18: 4
And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven,g and God has called her acts of injustice* to mind

This is clearly (with a study of Revelation) speaking of Babylon the Great, or the world empire of false religion, that permeates the world today and will be destroyed. He is telling his people to get out of her....reference on "my people" before it is too late....get away from false teachings.

Our ministry focal point is Gods Kingdom.

That was the focal point of Jesus, the apostles, disciples ministry. He and now we pray for it in the Lords prayer.
It is not a "felling inside one" but an actual government, that has been established and will resolve mankind of all the issues we all now face.

He gave a glimpse of the many benefits of that heavenly kingdom, and the earthly part of it by healing the sick, curing the lame and blind, and raising the dead.
Much better benefits than any man made govt.

So that is our focus...and that kingdom will do many things, but here are simply two:
Daniel 2:44 (crush all worldly kingdoms)
Revelation 21:3-4 (eliminate death, sickness, etc)
Benefits mentioned in Ps 37
Over 100 prophesies in bible on earths restoration.

And our preaching on the kingdom, has many aspects as it also teaches us that God is not responsible for earths woes, death, sickness, crime, but will certifiably cure all these in the near future..

The earth is under someones else control: 1 John 5:19: We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one

Note why things have intensified on earth Rev 12:7-9:
And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·eli and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

Note vs 12:
On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time


We know this due to what state the world, people are experiencing. And it is indicated in 2 Tim 3: 1 - 5,

BUT the key message again, that we bring to people...is Gods kingdom NOT MAN will solve all of these issues sickness, crime, war, disease, and yes even death.

So these are just a little of what we talk about to bring comfort to those who listen, as there is a great future ahead of us....if we follow Jesus teachings/

Jesus also noted to his followers in our day that teachings would vary from what he and apostles taught.
Thus he gave 8-10 key signs to identify the True Religion of our day....a roadmap if you will. It is a litmus test we individually should use to test our own belief system, or religion.

 

[kmh1031]

Jehovah in English is Gods actual name. It was in the original writings, manuscripts over 7K times. Clearly he wanted us to know it and use it..being in there 7K times.

Some dont see the need or significance of that name Jehovah..

We all have names, and titles...Mike, and also Dad, and Grandfather...but we are know by our personal name... God has one too, and Jesus prayed that about that name in the lords prayer.
And some of Jesus last words were...."I have made your name known"...showing the importance of it.

That name, or calling on it gives us protection: Pro 18:10
The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous one runs and receives protection
What if we dont use it? what if we are calling on the wrong name?

Clearly he wanted his name know.
And for years, you can see the tetregramatin (4 letters in Hebrew that make up gods name that was in the manuscripts) on churches, in Europe, and tons of other places.

Over the years, his name has been eliminated from many bibles. In fact, in the late 1800's the name was in most every bible...yet it has almost disappeared. Some bibles still have it in Ps 83:18 and elsewhere.
Isa 42:8 "I am Jehovah, that is my name".

Makes one wonder who is responsible for removing Gods personal name...for us to call on out of the bible.

By using a title; LORD, or lord changes the meaning of the bible when Lord is substituted in its place incorrectly...check out Ps 110:1 to see what I mean...
The LORD said unto my lord"????

Generally speaking, in most bibles...LORD means where gods name was originally...lord means Jesus or something else...so check the info at beginning of your bible to see this explained if it is in there.

 

[transfixer]

Jesus meant that, his teachings would separate family’s...because of previous beliefs that were incorrect the family held on to, vs changing to the truth of his teachings. This would cause the divisions...and it surely has, as indicated in your comments.

Yes we after much discussion, meetings, may see the need to disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers in the congregation, to keep it clean, just as Paul encouraged those congregations to do, and to "quit associating with them

Myself and others I know were never baptized, so it was never an issue of being " disfellowshipped" , it was simply I chose not to go to meetings, and I had acquaintances and girlfriends who were not witnesses, when I was 18 or 19 and started not going to meetings, it was like someone flipped a switch, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc, quit having anything to do with me, or a couple of friends of mine who once were part of the witnesses, my overall family who were once close knit, all of a sudden were divided, between those who attended the kingdom hall and those who didn't, my viewpoint on that is it isn't a very christian stance to take to virtually exile family members because they don't believe the same thing you do ,,,

Truth be known I fall short of being a good christian, although I am well thought of among my friends and aqquaintances, and known as a person good for their word, and treats people right, I have never cheated on my wife, and never would, which I cannot say about some of my relatives who are still witnesses, As I said there are witnesses who do try their best to live right, I know that.

I never implied the witnesses worship an individual person, but Russell and Rutherford were the founders of the organization, and their personal interpretations had major input into some of the beliefs, the witness organization isn't the only group to forensically study the scripture, but yet they claim to be the only ones to interpret it correctly, I have a hard time with that, always have.

I haven't been to a meeting or convention in years, but one thing that always bothered me, the speaker giving the talk, especially the older elders, always seem to "talk down " to the audience, and carried themselves as if they were better than those in the congregation, I remember elders counciling my mom and dad when they had marital issues, and they were very condescending towards both of them, like parents scolding children for doing something wrong, I was a kid, but I didn't like that attitude then, Maybe they have changed ? don't know, I know when I was a kid interracial marriages were frowned upon, and interracial weddings were not conducted by elders, I know that has changed with the times, so it seems the witnesses have adapted to world views on some things.

 

[kmh1031]

Very heartfelt response, and I am sure that your words are what you experienced.

Not sure on the much has changed, but i think more focus on love of the ones in the congregation, being more understanding to the needs of the flock, less rigid and more focus on adapting the attitude of Jesus, being that of love, humility, and know that we all bear burdens that are known, and some personally unknown.

If you look at any of the info on the JW.org, you will see more loving videos about family, helping older ones, not "getting ones back up" over minor offenses. More on doing for others, and how to have a happy family life, and dealing with lifes struggles.

Talking down, or being "rulematic" has been replaced by citing bible principals, and much more. If a brother gives a talk that is too strong, or has some of the characteristics you mentioned you experienced...he is absolutly talked to about the tone, message, and appeal of his talk.

As Gods people are ones of all nationalities, races, etc you will see (if anyone's attends) people of all walks of life, nationalities, races sitting together, and yes many married.
People are the only ones who care about color, or race, or nationality..God is nuetral,
Acts 10:34-35

34 At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial,a 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

So from many perspectives, adopting the personality of the Christ, helps us all be more humble, and attentive to others needs, without being a hypocrite...putting the needs of others above our own needs....

But being imperfect..these do creep in, at the KH and home, and everyday life..

Like Paul Said..what I want to do..I do not do..and what I do..i do not do...
and that was his own struggle with sin..waging a war in his body. And it is ours also.

Again, sorry for your personal experience growing up, and hope to see you again,

 

[1gr8bldr]

What do you guys think about Ex 3:15? God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers— the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob— has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation. This is my name to be remembered by.. "Yahweh" translated "The Lord".

 

[kmh1031]

Excellent scripture and one to remember.
But note the LORD in Capitol letters.
And my comments previously. That LORD is a change from the original writings.

And via research, Bible Hub for example shows that The name in English is Jehovah.

Lord is a title and there are Many lords, As there are many fathers... and mothers and presidents...
but one true almighty god and his name is Jehovah.
Check the Darby translation or an actual literal translation and u will most lily see this actual translation into Gods name

I think you will agree that when Jesus said to his father just before Death... “I have made ur name known.... he was not speaking of LORD... as again that is a title

Like You and I have: Father or Dad. But my Name is Mike