The Judges

#21
neither verse says as implied in these two references

(Acts 17:31; Rom. 2:16).

Rom 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Act 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
 
#22
neither verse says as implied in these two references

(Acts 17:31; Rom. 2:16).

Rom 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Act 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Did you think Banjo was saying God the Father will be judged by His Son as meaning the Father would judge his Son?

I think what Israel was saying is he doesn't think Banjo was implying that God would judge his Son but would judge through or by his Son.
 
#25
yes,

God the Father will not be judge by any one , especially God the Son,

Jesus is the standard we as men are judged by in Act's.
Same in Roman's, God judged the world by Jesus, the ordained man.
 
Thread starter #28
For post# 10

The righteous will be resurrected, go to Heaven, face Judgement, then return to the earth with Christ. Why couldn't they get judged on the earth after their resurrection? Can we assume Christ came to earth before they were resurrected for the return trip with them back to Heaven?
Christ will come to the earth for the resurrection, return to Heaven with the Saints, judge them, give them their "positions", and return back to the earth with the Saints for the 1,000 year reign?

Where were these righteous dead people before their resurrection?
THE SOULS OF THE RIGHTEOUS AT PHYSICAL DEATH BEFORE THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST were held captive by the devil in paradise in the lower parts of the Earth (Heb. 2:14, 15; Eph. 4:7-11). Both the righteous and the wicked were in the same underworld of departed spirits with a great gulf between the two departments (Luke 16:19-31). This is why the penitent thief went with Christ into paradise the day of the crucifixion (Luke 23:43). This paradise was located in the lower parts of the Earth or the heart of the Earth (Matt. 12:40; Eph. 4:7-11). Christ descended into He11 and liberated all these righteous souls and took them to Heaven with Him when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11; Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:25-36). Now when a righteous person dies his body goes back to dust again and he himself goes to be with Christ in Heaven (2 Cor. 5:8; Eph. 3:14, 15; Phil. 1:21-23; Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9-11). At the rapture these righteous souls in Heaven will come back with Christ and enter new bodies (1 Thess. 4:13-16; 1 Cor. 15:23, 35-38; Phil. 3:20, 21). The wicked dead will remain dead until the Millennium is over and then they will be resurrected and judged and then sent to eternal He11 (Rev. 20:4-15).

THE SOULS OF THE WICKED DEAD AT PHYSICAL DEATH go into He11 or the torment part of the underworld of departed spirits, and are in a conscious state of torment until the end of the Millennium when their bodies will be resurrected and they will come out of He11 to enter their bodies, be judged, and be cast into the lake of fire forever (Luke 16:19-31; 2 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 20:11-15). This state of the wicked dead is not purgatorial in any sense. There is no such thing as purgatory mentioned in Scripture. Men will be resurrected either righteous or wicked as the case may be and this is determined by how they have lived and died here (Rev. 22:11). The righteous are in a state of bliss and the wicked are in a state of torment in the intermediate state. The perfect and eternal bliss and rewards for the righteous will not be given until the resurrection of their bodies and at the judgment seat of Christ. The utter misery and complete punishment of the wicked according to there deeds will not begin until their resurrection and judgment. Both classes will be punished and rewarded according to the deeds done in the body.

Hope This helps you !
 
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Thread starter #30
that is wrong too, all judgement is given to the Son

Jhn 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
I believe post #2 you say the son judge no man, but now you Quote Scripture that says he does your learning That's good.
Add Acts 17:31 and John12:48 to your John 5:22
 
#31
now add Acts 17:31 and John 12:48
it is the meaning not just words, You have things mixed
Jhn 12:47

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

We are already condemned, already prisoners, We will account for believing or not believing. to get pardoned

The saints will judge ANGELS (fallen)

1Co 6:3

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
 

Israel

Senior Member
#32
yes,

God the Father will not be judge by any one , especially God the Son,

Jesus is the standard we as men are judged by in Act's.
Same in Roman's, God judged the world by Jesus, the ordained man.

I am pretty sure that is what Banjo means...and meant.

God has set Jesus, who is all of light, even as He himself is (God the Father) to be that by which man sees...or is blinded. Works of darkness cannot stand when His light is revealed.

We see the force of light...even in the natural.

Radiation pressure - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure
The generation of radiation pressure results from the momentum property of photons, specifically, changing the momentum when incident radiation strikes a surface. The surface exerts a force on the photons in changing their momentum by Newton's Second Law. A reactive force is applied to the body by Newton's Third Law.


Transparency holds all hope. What opposes by seeking its own substance...is swept away. We have time to be rid of what once appeared useful ballast. And float free, in light.
 
#33
Now when a righteous person dies his body goes back to dust again and he himself goes to be with Christ in Heaven (2 Cor. 5:8; Eph. 3:14, 15; Phil. 1:21-23; Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9-11). At the rapture these righteous souls in Heaven will come back with Christ and enter new bodies (1 Thess. 4:13-16; 1 Cor. 15:23, 35-38; Phil. 3:20, 21). The wicked dead will remain dead until the Millennium is over and then they will be resurrected and judged and then sent to eternal He11 (Rev. 20:4-15).

Hope This helps you !
Earlier you said;
"The Bible teaches that the righteous will be resurrected and will reign 1000 years before the wicked are resurrected and judged (Rev. 20:1-15). The righteous will be judged and rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ in Heaven before they come back with Christ to reign (2 Cor. 10:9-11; Rom. 14:10,11)."

I'm still a bit confused. You are saying the righteous will reign 1000 years with Christ. I got that part. Then you said the righteous will be judged in Heaven after their resurrection. You made it appear that they would resurrect, go to heaven for judgement, return to the earth, and then reign for 1000 years with Christ.
I guess you meant they would be judged in Heaven, before their resurrection. Then return with Christ for the reign. OK, your second response was a little clearer. You were referring to only the dead righteous.

I think you covered everyone but the living saints and the living non-believers at Christ's return. When will they receive their judgments? I would assume the living saints when Christ gets here but then you said the righteous would be judged in Heaven. I guess you meant only the already dead righteous and not the living righteous.
 
#34
John 5:22
In addition, the Father judges no one. Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge,
or
Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son,

Acts 17:31
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead."

From a Trinity view, how does one reconcile or picture this? The Father has given absolute authority to the Son to Judge. The Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son.

God will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed.

Isn't it still a judgement from God through the Son? Is it the divine nature of the Son assigned to do the judging or the man nature that is appointed to do the judging?

Can they be separated enough to do this or are they so unified that it's oneness?
It just seems a bit funny that we all discuss which part did what when it's the same ONE God.
 

Israel

Senior Member
#35
I am persuaded in his psyche, in his soul, man has held an illegitimate accusation against God and that is this: "You (God) do not know what it is like to be a man". It is the argument summoned against every call to righteousness, deeply embedded, where a false expediency seeks to trump truth. "You (God) do not deal fairly from a Throne that cannot be touched, with men who are so easily overcome in woes."
Yes, it is the cry of self pity.

But, it is illegitimate. It is all of wrong. From the beginning none has been more involved, more interested, and invested totally, in the welfare of man. And the One He is, knows man far better than man even begins to know himself.

In the fullness of time He determined to make this investment (in-vest-ment, by the incarnation) plain. His allowance of grace toward both our lack of sight, and this false witness borne against Himself in man, is of such a grace as we seek to know.

I don't think it wise to dismiss the depths of hold such an accusation held in us, for we may yet find it lurking in any proposition presented to ourselves, or self presented (it matters not) in which the argument is falsely laid: "But it was different for you, Jesus" or however it is advanced in "Jesus was a man with an unfair advantage". It is subtle when presented, not subtle when we hear it made clear.

There is something that would tell us, in His constitution, that Jesus was just nicer, naturally, more naturally inclined toward goodness, than we could ever think of being.
Jesus...well...it is (or was) just different for Him!

No, when Jesus appears, all men are judged in righteousness, none will be able to lay this accusation at Him, or at His Father...all the secret parts of man are manifestly exposed through Christ who in Himself exposed Himself to all of light...as a man, hiding nothing (as is made plain) from God His Father, or from His brothers.

Disciples watch Jesus in power...but no less in trembling...before God, His father. Gethsemane is not for us a quaint or manufactured testimony if we have seen it, believed it, and by believing...entered into it. No we do not confuse ourselves with Messiah, we dare not take to ourselves a misapprehending (often presented there by an enemy) about who we are in relationship to the Christ of God. But there is surely to be an apprehension of the Who He is in His victory determinately made through a body of flesh not unlike ours, in any way.

Yes, He shows us the way.

I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death.

For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.


This thing of all despising...weakness, this thing man has sought to triumph over through all expediency to the denying of righteousness, this thing that makes us seem pitiable in the sight of man, is precious beyond measure in God's sight.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Through Christ that weakness is manifest, through Christ that place is found of love's unhindered flow, where God meets man in all weakness and meekness as friend, and not foe. But, only there. God's hidden heart, where we live. To make what is hidden, plain.

For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
 
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Thread starter #36
John 5:22
In addition, the Father judges no one. Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge,
or
Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son,

Acts 17:31
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead."

From a Trinity view, how does one reconcile or picture this? The Father has given absolute authority to the Son to Judge. The Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son.

God will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed.

Isn't it still a judgement from God through the Son? Is it the divine nature of the Son assigned to do the judging or the man nature that is appointed to do the judging?

Can they be separated enough to do this or are they so unified that it's oneness?
It just seems a bit funny that we all discuss which part did what when it's the same ONE God.
And you believe they are one from what Scripture? How can they be one When each ONE has a body, soul, and spirit. As long as people believe this they will never understand some Scriptures of the Bible. Like you said It just seems a bit ....... that should throw up a red flag, when this happens they need to search the Scriptures and pray for the understanding of the Word and truth !
 
#37
And you believe they are one from what Scripture? How can they be one When each ONE has a body, soul, and spirit. As long as people believe this they will never understand some Scriptures of the Bible. Like you said It just seems a bit ....... that should throw up a red flag, when this happens they need to search the Scriptures and pray for the understanding of the Word and truth !
I don't follow the belief that they are one. I do not believe that God has a body. Although he knew from creation and revealed though his Word that he would be revealed through a body.
I'm pretty sure I see the Unity and Oneness of God way different from you although I may be close in how physical God is.
When we see Jesus, we will become like him. It's hard to deny the physical aspects of our future.

Now this was the tradition of Lamoni, which he had received from his father, that there was a Great Spirit... and then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit? And he [Lamoni] said, Yea. And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth? And he [Lamoni] said: Yea...
— Alma 18:5,26-28

And now when Aaron heard this, his heart began to rejoice, and he said: Behold, assuredly as thou livest, O king, there is a God. And the king said: Is God that Great Spirit that brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem? And Aaron said unto him: Yea, he is that Great Spirit, and he created all things both in heaven and in earth. Believest thou this? And he said: Yea, I believe that the Great Spirit created all things, and I desire that ye should tell me concerning all these things, and I will believe thy words.
— Alma 22:8-11

Luke 24:39
"A spirit does not have flesh and bones"

Was the revelation that God has a body received at a later date than originally believed? I wonder what the future holds for us with revelations not yet revealed? There must be some future revelations that will astound us.
I can understand and see future revelations. What I don't understand is when they conflict with past revelations.
 
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Israel

Senior Member
#38
And you believe they are one from what Scripture? How can they be one When each ONE has a body, soul, and spirit. As long as people believe this they will never understand some Scriptures of the Bible. Like you said It just seems a bit ....... that should throw up a red flag, when this happens they need to search the Scriptures and pray for the understanding of the Word and truth !
Perhaps Jesus understanding of what one means is correct...ours not.

We look at ourselves (or other individuals) and say "I am one"...or "he is one". But what happens when appearances are stripped away, when the deeper things of substance, actions and words are weighed?

What man is congruent in all? What man is "one" all the way through? What man does exactly how he thinks in perfect accord with what he also says? I think when those things are examined we may find man somewhat fragmented in his "oneness", often thinking one thing, professing another, and even doing a thing that is apart from either.

The scripture speaks of a singleness of heart and action:

And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

A man may discover in himself a war of parts, outwardly hoping to project a unified front, but inwardly being made aware of such battle toward reconciliation that unless he surrender to the God who is One through Christ's work of reconciliation, he is lost, even to himself.

God knows Himself.
 
Thread starter #39
I don't follow the belief that they are one. I do not believe that God has a body. Although he knew from creation and revealed though his Word that he would be revealed through a body.
I'm pretty sure I see the Unity and Oneness of God way different from you although I may be close in how physical God is.
When we see Jesus, we will become like him. It's hard to deny the physical aspects of our future.

Now this was the tradition of Lamoni, which he had received from his father, that there was a Great Spirit... and then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit? And he [Lamoni] said, Yea. And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth? And he [Lamoni] said: Yea...
— Alma 18:5,26-28

And now when Aaron heard this, his heart began to rejoice, and he said: Behold, assuredly as thou livest, O king, there is a God. And the king said: Is God that Great Spirit that brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem? And Aaron said unto him: Yea, he is that Great Spirit, and he created all things both in heaven and in earth. Believest thou this? And he said: Yea, I believe that the Great Spirit created all things, and I desire that ye should tell me concerning all these things, and I will believe thy words.
— Alma 22:8-11

Luke 24:39
"A spirit does not have flesh and bones"

Was the revelation that God has a body received at a later date than originally believed? I wonder what the future holds for us with revelations not yet revealed? There must be some future revelations that will astound us.
I can understand and see future revelations. What I don't understand is when they conflict with past revelations.
A lot of the Bible has been fulfilled and then a lot has not, The Book of Revelation has not happen or been fulfilled that might be why you feel like they conflict, that's why every one has to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth.
 
Thread starter #40
The Basis of Judgment

(1) The law of conscience (Rom. 2:12-16; Heb. 10:27).
(2). The law of memory (Luke 16:25).
(3) The law of Moses (Rom. 2:12-16; Rev. 20:11-15).
(4) The law of character (Heb. 3:8-10, 15; Eph. 4:19).
(5) The gospel (Rom. 2:12-16; John 12:47, 48; Rev. 20:11-15).
(6) All acts and words (Matt. 12:36; Luke 12:2-9; John 3:18).
(7) The book of life (Rev. 20: 11-15).
A man who passes through this judgment will have no excuse or criticism of the sentence passed regardless of what the decision will be, for in a sense he will be his own judge. The actual manifestation of his failure to live up to his conscience, the law, or the gospel, the fact that his sins and misdeeds are like mountains before him, in his conscience and his character, and the absence of his name in the book of life, will automatically condemn him.
The "Books" mentioned in Rev. 20:12 do not refer to the records of men written in the books and kept by a recording angel, for we have no knowledge of such in Scripture, but they contain the Word of God which is to judge man in the day of judgment, as seen above. The book of life is mention in Ex32:32, 33; Ps. 69:25-29; Dan. 12:1; Luke 10:20; Phil. 4:3; Rev. 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12, 15; 21:27; 22:19, and has reference to the book in which the name of every man who is to enter into eternal life, is recorded. This book along will be sufficient to condemn a man. It will show such hypocrites as mentioned in Matt. 7:21-23 that their names are not written therein.
It is not clear from Rev. 20:11-15 what will be the basis of judgment for the angels in Tartarus, but they probably know upon what basis their judgment is to be as well as does man. It seems clear that only "the dead are judged out of those things which are written in the books," and that they are judged "according to their works," It is also clear that it will be an individual judgment, for it is recorded that "every man" will be judged according to his work.
The dead who are dealt with here could not include the angels, for the former are the occupants of "death an he11." This proves that Hades, the present and temporary He11, is different from the lake of fire or eternal He11. The sinner is placed in Hades to await his committal to the lake of fire, even as the criminal is placed in a jail before ha is tried and sentenced to the penitentiary. The sinner is guilty while in Hades, although he is not formally condemned before the final judgment. Therefore, he suffers fire in Hades as well as in the lake of fire (Luke 16:19-31), just like a man suffers confinement in jail before he goes to the penitentiary.
 
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