The misuse (and shaming consequences) of "total surrender"

Thread starter #1
Another quick video to encourage and build up the body. ---
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Am I really dedicated to God? Would I drop everything in a moment to serve Him? Am I totally surrendered to His cause? Because, if not, maybe I’m not even saved!



This was Neil’s concern when he called in from North Carolina. In this short video clip, I address Neil’s fear and highlight the truth that will set us free from that type of accusation.

From Andrew Farley Ministries
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Ahhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! So we are of redeemed hearts. And we suffer from bad teaching, at least those who don't know what a redeemed heart is. Now where does this "bad teaching" come from? Why does this "bad teaching" show up in the body of believers? Who are the bad teachers ( where are they, where did they come from, why did they show up) so that so many are afflicted with doubtful hearts?
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
If I go to a worship service next Sunday and "bad teaching" shows up how can I recognize it as such? (" Bad teaching" here is specific to misleading the christian heart so as to make it doubt even salvation.) Where does it come from, does it have a history?
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

How is this twisted by bad teaching?
 
Thread starter #5
Gordon do you trust your ability to keep rules or are you confident of being lead by the Holy Spirit within you?

One is death the other life. The strength of sin is the law (Romans) yet wondrously apart from the law sin is dead.(Same book)

God entrusted you with His Life when you believed. Start there. You have no need of any other "teacher" than the Spirit and sound doctrine aka emphasis on Christ's finished work. It's what changed you, and what those around you are needing.

His yoke = easy. Burden? = Light. You got this because He's got you. You who are lead of the Spirit are not under that old burdensome yoke. Enjoy Him! The world needs those who enjoy their Lord, not those who worry about their "waning dedication" as the video points out. (We make this far too complicated - I'm guilty as well. )
Peace! (His)
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Can I tell u the truth about my ability to keep rules. But first you are not answering my questions? Second you seem to assume a spiritual difference or differences in a human being. I think it is a false dichotomy, as it does not seem sufficient to explain a human being or a christian especially.

In any case this is why I can follow rules.

a) My mom ( a christian who would read the bible to her kids) would throw nickles and dimes in a kitchen cabinet drawer. I was maybe 4 or five when I got the idea one day to "take" one nickle without telling her and go to the store. I both myself a whole bag full of candy with it. Returned not home with them but went to grand ma's and ate them there. ( I got a huge butt woopin for that. ) Now I don't know if it was the Holy Spirit in my mom which made her do it, but it has keep me on the strait and narrow all these over 60 yrs. later. My wife says I'm too honest as a matter of fact, but she was a spoiled brat and I suppose never experience how the Holy Spirit worked in my mom.

b) I have been divorced brother... my wife left me... I took a hammering I don't even want to recall and I know why I got the hammering. I don't want to repeat that hammering. ( All I can say is God is correct about what constitutes an appropriate marriage and a wholesome sexuality.) And I can say... without a doubt that though temptation has come my way... I know it is a sucker punch. So in this way I know to be faithful and with time it has got easier. Rules... I leaned about sex and marriage rules this way and I suppose by the Holy Spirit...who said after the fact, " Hey, this is what I meant between killer sins and lesser sins."

c) I'm a taxidermist. It is part of earning my bread. I don't frig with rules. My fines are 10 x what a hunter's fine would be. Rules... ah... I turn people away because of rules and loose money in the process.

d) I'm a professional. Or I was. I use to belong to a professional nursing college. There were rules about nursing that you break and your not a nurse anymore. Rules. Yes I kept rules, for the benefit of patients and the institution I worked for--which was really rules to protect society and keep public trust in the profession and the hospital I worked for. Rules. Yes I trust myself to follow rules.

e) Now this is the rule I cleave to: Honesty. I have found that being honest with the Holy Spirit, being myself with the Holy Spirit is a sure fire way to trust the following of rules.

f) Also I know that, in my case if I can be honest, loneliness and booze are not to be trusted. I entertain them only in moderation. That is a rule I learned from the school of hard knocks... which just might the be the will of God for some redeemed travelers like me.

g) My mom would suggest that maybe hearing the Holy Spirit was sometimes difficult... and just because your a christian it isn't automatic especially with eight kids after supper running around the house. Or when puberty kicked them in the pants... Or when peer pressure was witching her brood etc... Mom had a good rule which seems to have served her seven sons well. It was simple: " Respect girls." and, " Respect other people's parents and your own." As regards boys, " You don't have to be a punching bag, somethings, though rarely, use your fists." I used them twice in 65 yrs. Good rules to follow I think...

Note: I used my fists when I was a teen only. I learned shortly after that a man with the right punch can kill another man with just one punch. So as an adult I have never ventured a punch meant to send a message.
 
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Thread starter #7
I guess we're at an impasse brother, but not my intention, nor to offend. However there is most definitely a difference between believer and unbeliever, or, of those God has raised up in Christ and those who have refused the same life giving message. The cross is the only tool to remove us from the morality chasing Adam and into the powerful Arms of life giving grace.

There is a man who will refuse to shed his birthright in Adam, yet there is one who called out for transformation and our gracious Lord supplied in grace what the self righteous adamic man could not attain.

Please understand I'm not speaking evil of good works, but there are those works that come from a heart where the nails, wood, blood and a risen Lord has changed ... and those whose heart does not grasp the divine life - yet that one still striving to be pleasing to mankind around him. We can applaud both and maybe change their opinions towards righteous works for charitable reasons, but in the end we can reform one's flesh all we can and still the heart of man in unbelief of the cross and resurrection is in danger of, well, being a very nice lost guy.

I'm also a maintenance "professional" but by this I am not known by Providence above. There is one who knows me fully, and in my earthly departure I will fully see what I have witnessed of Him in this life by love and grace - but no longer thru "a glass darkly", as in this perishable body.

What I am is a simple man with a simple message. I will encourage you and all others in it because of the uniqueness and profound impact of an indestructible life - who calls us to have the same, not by merit, but by His life freely given to transform us. The life of Christ within each believer is the missing part of what is preached out of the bible today, and sadly, few believers know their own complete, holy identity in Christ.

More as time permits. Peace.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Well, In my spiritual life and the life of my tradition Christ within the individual believers has ever been significant feature and from this inner life one is driven. What my question is, why is this new now? Why, what accounts for this essential aspect of faith to be lacking? The missing part, how did this come about? History?
 
Thread starter #9
The video discusses the erroneous use of the word surrender and encourages it's biblical counterpart, TO OFFER. The difference is huge, especially if one believers God is an adversary they approach, not a friend. A person surrendering usually does so with someone they are not on the same team with. Putting it into common Christian belief today, it's as if we have a holy war with our Heavenly Father during every decision and MUST humbly lay down our rights to this Lord with whom we are believing we aren't quite on the same page with.

This is the me centered theology of humility chasing folks who know not their true nature in Christ - if they had believed in the cross and resurrection at one time to save. It goes against the inclusion - love aspect of Abba Father who works in and thru believers as they OFFER themselves to God as a living sacrifice. THAT is true humility, not that We are sufficient in ourselves, but our works sufficiency comes from an inner source, delighting to be within and express Himself thru us!
We have the choice to offer ourselves daily as His sons and daughters, and it is done out of a heart that He Himself has made new.

Not sure what else to say to answer your concern on surrender vs offering, I think the vid is self explanatory.

To hearts really struggling with their own dedication, this is a much needed word of compassion, agreed? One who is NOT concerned about their dedication and identity would likely not be one to believe in Jesus, correct?

A dead man in Adam is not concerned for righteousness. Yet one eho is made alive by wood, nails, blood and is raised together with Christ certainly is. Their own works follow them, as they offer themselves to the leading of their best Friend.
Who, by the way, lives within them. 😉👍

"Greater is He who lives within us than He who is in the world"
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Well much of the 17th, 18th and the 19th centuries was a canister blast of puritanical ( man as depraved devil worshiper vs saint) outlook-- even in orthodox Christianity. ****ation ( a la Old Time Religion) was the real fear, both preached and worried. It lingers today in some believers I suppose...

I would caution that the us vs them in Christianity is not new. The "us" is always trying to revive the "thems".
 
Thread starter #11
Well much of the 17th, 18th and the 19th centuries was a canister blast of puritanical ( man as depraved devil worshiper vs saint) outlook-- even in orthodox Christianity. ****ation ( a la Old Time Religion) was the real fear, both preached and worried. It lingers today in some believers I suppose...

I would caution that the us vs them in Christianity is not new. The "us" is always trying to revive the "thems".
We do not view those without Christ as an adversary. Scriptures teach we don't wrestle with flesh and blood (mankind for whom Christ died), but share freely the gift of eternal life freely given to us by grace.

How we go about doing that is in the different expressions of each gifted child of God, humbly depending on and enjoying His life within.
Si? Peace bros
 
So, I'm trying to get this right. Are you saying that those who do not appreciate "His life within" are without Christ because of errors in Christian teaching... are not Christian or are adversary?

It seems to me that the views you have been sharing are that the adversary does not understand scripture as you might, that they are in the throws of "flesh and blood" and yet they call themselves Christians.

For example I can understand that eternal life is not only something grace afforded to the individual to benefit and enjoy, but also it is even more powerful in the fellowship of the Christian community, or at least in the Church setting a significant part of enjoying our life in Christ. Therefore, life in Christ and Christ in us, is equally life in the Church setting or the assembly or in the body of believers, where Christ is equally within.

So would you say that someone holding the belief above, is ignorant of Christ within as the only gift of Grace and that that individual is really to flesh and blood spirits and not a creature formed by the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ, the very Jesus Christ they declare having died on the cross and resurrected... ?
 
Thread starter #13
To answer your 1st question, it isn't about teaching per se, it's about heart. When someone comes to an end of themselves they can welcome the cross and resurrection to change the heart. That's a work of God, HIS work of grace. We can't take credit for it, nor can we live with the flesh-ly pursuit of life without Christ, no matter how good it looks on the outside.

More later. Sushi callin
 
Can I tell u the truth about my ability to keep rules. But first you are not answering my questions? Second you seem to assume a spiritual difference or differences in a human being. I think it is a false dichotomy, as it does not seem sufficient to explain a human being or a christian especially.

In any case this is why I can follow rules.

a) My mom ( a christian who would read the bible to her kids) would throw nickles and dimes in a kitchen cabinet drawer. I was maybe 4 or five when I got the idea one day to "take" one nickle without telling her and go to the store. I both myself a whole bag full of candy with it. Returned not home with them but went to grand ma's and ate them there. ( I got a huge butt woopin for that. ) Now I don't know if it was the Holy Spirit in my mom which made her do it, but it has keep me on the strait and narrow all these over 60 yrs. later. My wife says I'm too honest as a matter of fact, but she was a spoiled brat and I suppose never experience how the Holy Spirit worked in my mom.

b) I have been divorced brother... my wife left me... I took a hammering I don't even want to recall and I know why I got the hammering. I don't want to repeat that hammering. ( All I can say is God is correct about what constitutes an appropriate marriage and a wholesome sexuality.) And I can say... without a doubt that though temptation has come my way... I know it is a sucker punch. So in this way I know to be faithful and with time it has got easier. Rules... I leaned about sex and marriage rules this way and I suppose by the Holy Spirit...who said after the fact, " Hey, this is what I meant between killer sins and lesser sins."

c) I'm a taxidermist. It is part of earning my bread. I don't frig with rules. My fines are 10 x what a hunter's fine would be. Rules... ah... I turn people away because of rules and loose money in the process.

d) I'm a professional. Or I was. I use to belong to a professional nursing college. There were rules about nursing that you break and your not a nurse anymore. Rules. Yes I kept rules, for the benefit of patients and the institution I worked for--which was really rules to protect society and keep public trust in the profession and the hospital I worked for. Rules. Yes I trust myself to follow rules.

e) Now this is the rule I cleave to: Honesty. I have found that being honest with the Holy Spirit, being myself with the Holy Spirit is a sure fire way to trust the following of rules.

f) Also I know that, in my case if I can be honest, loneliness and booze are not to be trusted. I entertain them only in moderation. That is a rule I learned from the school of hard knocks... which just might the be the will of God for some redeemed travelers like me.

g) My mom would suggest that maybe hearing the Holy Spirit was sometimes difficult... and just because your a christian it isn't automatic especially with eight kids after supper running around the house. Or when puberty kicked them in the pants... Or when peer pressure was witching her brood etc... Mom had a good rule which seems to have served her seven sons well. It was simple: " Respect girls." and, " Respect other people's parents and your own." As regards boys, " You don't have to be a punching bag, somethings, though rarely, use your fists." I used them twice in 65 yrs. Good rules to follow I think...

Note: I used my fists when I was a teen only. I learned shortly after that a man with the right punch can kill another man with just one punch. So as an adult I have never ventured a punch meant to send a message.
I want to say that what you have written touches me, and some more deeply.

And specifically this, I wonder if I am relating to rightly:

b) I have been divorced brother... my wife left me... I took a hammering I don't even want to recall and I know why I got the hammering. I don't want to repeat that hammering. ( All I can say is God is correct about what constitutes an appropriate marriage and a wholesome sexuality.) And I can say... without a doubt that though temptation has come my way... I know it is a sucker punch. So in this way I know to be faithful and with time it has got easier. Rules... I leaned about sex and marriage rules this way and I suppose by the Holy Spirit...who said after the fact, " Hey, this is what I meant between killer sins and lesser sins."
When someone takes some portion of our experience or testimony, thinking they have some knowledge of it themselves...O! how easy it is to fall into presumption.

I would like to not be so, but never really know if I am...moving presumptuously (and blinded by it) or seeking to move in faith toward a more wholesome communion. And yes, in that I know I must be ready to receive this...

"You are a very foolish man, not knowing when you are being hurtful in your presumptions...and this no less while seeking, or claiming to carry the name of Christ"

But I too "have a something" in experience, and though I seek no comparison...I ask to hear me out to its end...and judge for yourself whether we have/had come to some kind of common place...some kind of reckoning through the situation that is similar. The conclusions are not necessarily informed by the spirit just because of some (on my end) perceived commonality...I may just be a man who has yet to hear.

But I know a place so dismal in memory, so grievous in the going through, so flat, painted all in gray and black in recollection, so much like chewing tin foil when considered even only peripherally now...that I am able to see a man whose cry was only this..."what must I do to never come to this place again".

In one sense...it is entirely of self interest...but how can "dear Lord save me!"...not be, in some sense, so? Everything winnowed out of what might be considered benevolence, everything gone of what might appear the integrity of seeking "truth" as such might be known...and reduced to purest cry of only "get me out of this fire", and if so, show me how to not come here again!

And I knew...though not perhaps to a fullness as I now am able to see...it was a place, the only place, I deserved. Even had I wanted to shift, find blame elsewhere...I could not. I had no place to my own understanding from which to ask for mercy...not ignorance, not mistaken perceptions of consequence, nothing except all that testified to and against me "I am the man!"

I expect nothing from you in acknowledgment, agreement, or even recognition...

And despite all the "other" things I have over the years shared here, or indulged myself in, or spoken as though revelation is like a bouncy house of fun to be played in, there remains in me and for me this unshakable conviction that no matter how, or with what, or what might be added above the foundation that has any appearance of truth...He must always appear, to both the most deeply afflicted and/or the most rapturously engaged...as the God of Salvation. There is not one drop of sorrow in that recognition...not one iota of shame, not the merest nor faintest whiff of anything odious to what that light may (of myself, and to myself) cause me to appear as.

If I need appear a horror, and I have little doubt I have, I am propelled not by a desire to return (as God surely Himself knows!) to that pit from which I was dug in horror of myself...but that even in that He has shown Himself faithful...so that knowing even from such horror He may shine...so be it.

I think (and am open to all rebuke, as I think I know a little bit of what must befall anything that seeks to resist it) I may have some small understanding of what David meant here:

And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight:

But, as I must be with you, I dare not presume even with David's worship to imagine I have entered.
 
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The places we deserve. And the places we don't deserve. It is often said that we deserve perdition, but for grace ( which we don't deserve) we inherit eternal life.

Yet now, without a mask or unmasked right now, I do not recall ever not being to our Father. And so in this way, I understand that He gave me to Christ. As any individual who cleaved to the Father we can be like Jonah, or like priests, or like sundry bible heroes... who refuse missions, pray or minister for others not knowing we are the most needy of prayer and ministering ( shoemakers with no shoes) etc. and we sin and when we sin, at those very minutes ( it only takes minutes) our Father is sleeping we say to ourselves, only to wake up next morning knowing we are doomed. We cannot deny our past and we cannot deny what the future holds. We cannot deny we hurt someone, maybe several individuals and ourselves.

So I deserved Christ because my Father gave me to him. Yet I deserve not life and especially a wholesome eternal life due to sin--- which in short is sinning due to the impress of the world and the fractal nature of sin, the spawns of sins, compounded into sins renewed so that even babies, bambinos, are cursed to shame.

And yet what is Christ... to the Lady at the well? What advise was our Lords' to her. "Sin no more." Perhaps. Yet how many did Christ meet and said, "Sin no more." even they knew not him as Christ. And Him knowing they had no way of knowing. " You who do not know who you pray to, sin no more."

How many times did God tell Israel to sin no more? I think it is a good counsel even if one does not know who Christ is--- when we need life itself let alone mercy... "You sinned, but sin no more."

Now knowing Christ what do we deserve? To eternal life what do we deserve? Do we deserve to see the Kingdom? I think so. Born again, renewed we deserve a new place, a rest, a homeland for the saints.

When we were to our Father, God told us to sin no more and in so doing " Come back to me your God with a renewed humanity intact. "Sin no more."

But now we are to Christ and Christ also says "Sin no more." But not as our Father is he, we to Him as sons, friends, intimates... of Christ, welded by the cross, forms created by the Holy Spirit--- it is easier to sin no more---knowing we are never again distanced from God and what again we must die to, we die to, knowing we will rise again in Him and for Him... which we ever deserved and His will for us...

The ways of God are many-- let us be in some of the ways and to and in Christ who died on the cross and resurrected let us rejoice and to the Kingdom... let's worship in that very place. But let us never again believe we know Him such as to be as Him... We are man, male and female. He created and recreated us in his image as Christ walked with man... but not Him--Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Logos et al... God, the divine I AM. Let us rejoice in God's favor, that the Lord lives with us.
 
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