The Truth About God

[Artfuldodger]

Paul said that man was "the image and glory of God" (1 Cor. 11:7). The Greek word for image here is eikon, meaning likeness, profile, statue, and bodily resemblance, as proved in places where it is used (Matt. 22:20; Acts 19:35; Rom. 1:23; 8:29; 11:4; 1 Cor. 15:49; 2 Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Heb. 10:1; Rev. 13:14, 15; 14:9-11; 15:2; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4).
There is no question about man being in the moral and spiritual likeness of God, but none of the above passages refer to this idea. They refer to bodily form and shape. If man was made in the image and likeness of God bodily, then God must have a body, and an outward form and shape.
One might as well argue that image and likeness, when used of idols, mean moral and spiritual image and likeness and not outward bodily shape, as to argue this about God; for the same Hebrew and Greek words are used in both cases as seen in the references above. That it refers to what can be seen with the natural eyes is clear from the above passages as well as from Gen. 5:3; Isa. 40:19, 20; 44:9-17; Ezek. 1:5-28; Acts 19:35.

Then Stephen saw Jesus in his resurrected spiritual body standing next to God in his spiritual body? What would Stephen have seen if he had seen Heaven before the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus?

Would he have seen just God? Wouldn't he have also seen the Word? Even if the Word was not yet human? It was already there with God. It was part of the Creation process.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Yes the word ELOHIM is in my tread THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY This is the Hebrew word for "God" in Gen. 1:1 and 2,700 other places in the Old Testament so which one are you referring to.

The Word? The part that became man.

 

[Banjo Picker]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God and the word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The word refers to Christ (v 14; Rev. 19:13) and proves His pre-existence (Mic. 5:1, 2; Rev. 1:8, 11; 2:8; 22:13-16). He is an eternal being as are also the Father and the Holy Spirit (Ps. 90:1, 2; Heb. 9:14). They make the Divine Trinity (1 Jn. 5:7).
Not only was the word with God but He was God and always will be as much divine as the other two members of the trinity (Ps. 45:6, 7; Isa. 9:6, 7; Jn. 1:1; Heb. 1:8-12; Rev. 1:8, 11; 22:13-16).
God created all things by Jesus Christ (v 3; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1, 2).
Not only were all things created by him but redemption of creation is by him (17:2; Col. 1:20). As all creation came BY the son, THROUGH the Holy Spirit, so all redemption comes the same way. It was what Christ did on the cross that made it possible for God to redeem through the power of the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-5; Titus 3:5).

Art if this does not help you to understand then you will have to just pray to God to reveal it to you.

 

[Artfuldodger]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God and the word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The word refers to Christ (v 14; Rev. 19:13) and proves His pre-existence (Mic. 5:1, 2; Rev. 1:8, 11; 2:8; 22:13-16). He is an eternal being as are also the Father and the Holy Spirit (Ps. 90:1, 2; Heb. 9:14). They make the Divine Trinity (1 Jn. 5:7).
Not only was the word with God but He was God and always will be as much divine as the other two members of the trinity (Ps. 45:6, 7; Isa. 9:6, 7; Jn. 1:1; Heb. 1:8-12; Rev. 1:8, 11; 22:13-16).
God created all things by Jesus Christ (v 3; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1, 2).
Not only were all things created by him but redemption of creation is by him (17:2; Col. 1:20). As all creation came BY the son, THROUGH the Holy Spirit, so all redemption comes the same way. It was what Christ did on the cross that made it possible for God to redeem through the power of the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-5; Titus 3:5).

Art if this does not help you to understand then you will have to just pray to God to reveal it to you.

It helps and I will pray for understanding. Maybe I can find a verse on who the Son was before he became man. An eternal being that has always been but didn't become the Son until he became a man. Yet Creation was through this same persona of the Trinity.

Any ideas on pointing me in that direction?

 

[Artfuldodger]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God and the word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The word refers to Christ (v 14; Rev. 19:13) and proves His pre-existence (Mic. 5:1, 2; Rev. 1:8, 11; 2:8; 22:13-16). He is an eternal being as are also the Father and the Holy Spirit (Ps. 90:1, 2; Heb. 9:14). They make the Divine Trinity (1 Jn. 5:7).
Not only was the word with God but He was God and always will be as much divine as the other two members of the trinity (Ps. 45:6, 7; Isa. 9:6, 7; Jn. 1:1; Heb. 1:8-12; Rev. 1:8, 11; 22:13-16).
God created all things by Jesus Christ (v 3; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1, 2).
Not only were all things created by him but redemption of creation is by him (17:2; Col. 1:20). As all creation came BY the son, THROUGH the Holy Spirit, so all redemption comes the same way. It was what Christ did on the cross that made it possible for God to redeem through the power of the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-5; Titus 3:5).

Art if this does not help you to understand then you will have to just pray to God to reveal it to you.

In "the The truth about Jesus" thread, you said the Son always existed. Then later you talk against "Eternal Sonship" saying "as God, Christ was not a Son." That he became the Son of God.
Then you lead the questioning of how can a Son always exist if it is referring to his deity? I can see that reasoning. I've asked that same question. A Son that has always existed? How can a Father have a Son that's always existed?
I would like to believe he became a Son at his human birth. I'm going to need some scripture to point me in that direction. Specificially in what capacity did the Son persona of the Trinity always exist if not as an eternal Son?

I'll ask one more time. What was the Son persona of the Trinity before it became a human?

 

[welderguy]

It helps and I will pray for understanding. Maybe I can find a verse on who the Son was before he became man. An eternal being that has always been but didn't become the Son until he became a man. Yet Creation was through this same persona of the Trinity.

Any ideas on pointing me in that direction?

Until you can understand the deity of Christ, it will never make sense to you. If you try to see Jesus apart and separate from God somehow, you'll just never see it.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Until you can understand the deity of Christ, it will never make sense to you. If you try to see Jesus apart and separate from God somehow, you'll just never see it.

While that may be true, do you see the Christ persona of the Trinity becoming the Son of God when he became the Son of Mary?
That is what Banjo Picker is telling us. I've never heard the Trinity explained that way.

If Sonship doesn't describe Christ's deity and only describes his humanity, then I'd like to know what that persona was before he became a Son.

Do you believe in incarnational Sonship as well?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I believe he has always been the Son of God. Now if he only became the Son fo God at his incarnation, what was he before? If this is true then God the Father did not become the Father until Christ became the Son at his incarnation.
Before the incarnation there was no Father/Son relationship. Well I wonder what glory and relationship Jesus was referring to in his prayer to his Father.

There was this One. The One that "became" the Father, sent the One who would "become" his Son.

The Triune God has eternally existed as three persons. These personas became the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

This is what I was wanting Banjo Picker to show me most of all. How did these three personas always exist if they also became? If the Word persona "became" the Son, then what was he before he "became" the Son?

 

[hummerpoo]

Q—What can Perfection become?
A—Imperfect.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I guess I see a bit of irony in the Incarnational Trinitarian Theology.
Not so much in the Eternal Trinitarian Theology. Perhaps not irony but just a misunderstanding. A triune persona of the Son eternally exisitng but not being the Son until he became human. (Incarnational Sonship)

I can understand this about Incarnational Trinitarian Theology;

"Last, Jesus had to ascend into heaven as one of us, fully human, and be restored to complete fellowship with the Father and Spirit. The Bible says he ascended bodily into heaven, as a glorified human being, and he is now at the Father’s right hand, which is a figure of speech meaning the most honored position. His is eternally, even now, our mediator, our intercessor, praying for us, and transforming us to become more like he is. By the Spirit he is sharing with us his regenerated and perfected humanity."

But if Christ only became God's Son at the incarnation, what was he before? I realize he picked up humanity along the way. I can see that. He hasn't lost his humanity, he perfected it.

Still he prayed to his Father to restore what he had before he picked up his humanity. The glory he had before he became a man.
If he wasn't the Son in that glory he previously had with the Father, what was he? What was the Father?
Did they have different names? Were those just the names of roles or were they always the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Do we say it was the One who became the Father? The One who would become the Son? Is it who the One would become or were they already those personas?

 

[welderguy]

While that may be true, do you see the Christ persona of the Trinity becoming the Son of God when he became the Son of Mary?
That is what Banjo Picker is telling us. I've never heard the Trinity explained that way.

If Sonship doesn't describe Christ's deity and only describes his humanity, then I'd like to know what that persona was before he became a Son.

Do you believe in incarnational Sonship as well?

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus' glory was veiled while He was on earth. We got only a small glimpse on the mount of transfiguration. He was always the Son of God. And He was always God. Only the manifestation changed, not His being.

 

[gemcgrew]

Q—What can Perfection become?
A—Imperfect.

Amen

With perfection, there is no need to change or develop. Any change would be for the worse. Immutability prevents change for the worse.


"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

 

[Artfuldodger]

Amen

With perfection, there is no need to change or develop. Any change would be for the worse. Immutability prevents change for the worse.


"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

Was Jesus always human? Did his incarnation change anything about him? Didn't at that point he became 100% man? I mean he didn't put on a human costume, he actually became a man.
Then when he returned to heaven he took that part of his incarnation with him.
His deity didn't change. His sonship didn't change. His previous glory he had before didn't change. But I would think taking on humanity was a bit of a change.

 

[welderguy]

He was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

...or I should say He is.

 

[Artfuldodger]

He was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

...or I should say He is.

Does that mean he was human before he became human? I don't think that is what you are saying. Yet if he was already slain? Again that goes to that thing about "time" or out of time.

Maybe that's why some people don't believe he became the Son until his incarnation. That he was Word or Logos but not yet the Son. I don't agree with that but I can see why they see it that way.
He was the Son in Word only. He was eternal but not yet in that role or capacity until the incarnation.

The One who would become the Son in time but already is in Word. The persona of the Trinity known as the Word would already be the Son in Word but technically, not it time. I guess some people believe it took that day in time that he came to make it when he became the Son. Similar to it took that day in time when he was "slain"to make his substitution for sin applicable. Yet we know he was slain at the foundation of the world.

Maybe if one could see eternal Sonship in the same respect as the
Son being slain before the foundation of the world.

But since we know that Jesus never changes and isn't in time, the Word was already with God and was God.

Again the question is, was he already with the Father in his human form and shape before he came to the earth as a human? Did Jesus not gain anything at the incarnation? A human body? A human soul? Nothing?

Suppose whatever he gained as a human he shed at his ascension? Back to the glory he had with his Father before he became a man.
I don't believe that to be so as he went to heaven in his human body.

So maybe he was already a human before he came to the earth in a "out of time" way.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The Word became flesh.

That sounds like a change to me. Like the Word wasn't always human. The Word may have always been a Son and the Word may have always been the Father but the Word "became" flesh. The diety of the Word didn't change but when it became flesh we must denote a change. An event in time such as the Incarnation can also be called a change. The Word became flesh. I'd say that was a pretty big change. The manifestation was a change. The Word didn't put on a human costume, the Word became flesh.

It's almost like a new manifestation for the Word. When it became flesh. Even though flesh(humans) were made in their likeness. Let "us" make man in our image and likeness.
I can see why some believe and see some human aspects of God or better yet humans having some aspects of God's shape and form.

That doesn't mean that God was human though. Scripture says the Word became flesh. John used the "Word" instead of the Son becoming flesh. John used the Word instead of the Son in other verses as well.

The Word was with God, the Word became flesh. Again I can see why some see it as the Word becoming the Son when the Word became flesh. When the Word became flesh, it also picked up a Mother.

I'm assuming the Word didn't have a mother until it became flesh. Another reason some see it as the Word becoming the Son when it became flesh.

Then this Word that became flesh was anointed by God. Yet another reason to believe he became a Son at his incarnation.

Not that I see it this way, just putting things out there since Banjo Picker never finished explaining it as well as I expected or needed.

So if the Word "became" flesh, why can't we see this as a change? Even if the Lamb was slain at the foundation of the world. Why can't we see or apply things in time as God placed them in time?
Didn't God also make time? The Word became flesh. The Father "sent" the Son. This happened in time. Time doesn't really take away from what God was or is. Time describes that the Word became flesh.

The Word is now flesh. I'm not sure it was flesh before it became flesh. It may have been the Word and the Word may have been the Son but the Word was not flesh. The Word "became" flesh.

As we speak today, the Word is still flesh. Once it became flesh, there was no turning back the hands of God's time.

I believe Stephen saw Jesus as flesh in Heaven. I don't believe Stephen would have seen Jesus as flesh before the Word became flesh. If he were offered a glimpse of Heaven before the incarnation.

I'm not sure how he would have seen the Father and Son but I don't think he would have seen the Word manifest as flesh before the Incarnation.

 

[Banjo Picker]

Bible Writers not only stated that God has a body, but they also testified that they have seen it with the natural eyes. Abraham made a dinner for God and two angels and they actually ate food (Gen. 18). Jacob had a physical wrestling match with God all night (Gen. 32:24-30). Moses talked with God face to face (Exodus 33:11-23). Seventy-four elders of Israel had a banquet with God in Sinai (Exodus 24:9-11). Joshua and all Israel saw God with a sword in His hand(Josh. 5:13-15). Gideon (Judg. 6:11-23), Manoah and wife (Judg. 13:3-23), David (1 Chron. 21: 16, 17), Job (42:5), Isaiah (6:1-13), Amos (9:1), and others saw God standing on the ground, sitting thrones, and having bodily parts like man. Ezekiel saw God on a chariot and described Him as having an "appearance of a man" with loins and the upper and lower parts of a body like a man (Ezek. 1:26-28; 10:1, 20; 40:3), Daniel saw both God and the Father and the Son of man as two separate beings at the same time and at the same place. God was on a throne and had on white clothes, and His hair was white. The Son of man also had a body, had clothes on, and had hair on his head (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6). Stephen saw both God and Christ at the same place with the same eyes (Acts 7:56-59). John saw God on a throne and Christ symbolized as a lamb and the Holy Spirit symbolized as lamps of fire and seven horns and eyes, all at the same time (Rev. 4:2-5; 5:1, 5-7).