The truth about Jesus Christ

Miguel Cervantes

GON Severe Weatherman
Where does spiritual wisdom come from? And who gets to be the spiritual descendants of the Pharisees?
Not sure what the qualifications of the latter are, but I'm almost positive I've run into a few of them. ;)
 

Israel

Senior Member
Where does spiritual wisdom come from? And who gets to be the spiritual descendants of the Pharisees?
Christ is the wisdom of the disciple.

Pharisees do get a bad rap for the most part...if we too easily forget Nicodemus, the wisdom of Gamiliel, Joseph of Arimithea and of course, Saul of Tarsus.

But in your question:
"And who gets to be the spiritual descendants of the Pharisees?"

I cannot but face the one requiring answer first before even considering answer to yours: "What is a Pharisee?"

Note: Stepping away to consider return to bed after making the coffee...this came "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees" So, I see something of a "hard link" made by Jesus to their defining. (regardless of my regard for any individual or particular Pharisee) There is a "something" of Pharisees that if recognized by the leaven...identifies them...and perhaps also is vice versa.

(Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?)

Some stand quite unofficially recognized. Some fall to an enticement to add stature. Resorting to approvals of man. And of such leaven a whole of loaf is raised to preserve official standing. (Which a disciple may see as no more than a falling for just another "way of the world")


The man who wrote this:
for I will not dare to speak anything of the things that Christ did not work through me

Also wrote this:
in regard to which I was set a preacher and apostle -- truth I say in Christ, I do not lie -- a teacher of nations, in faith and truth.

How much of me is turned by small implication. Why would Paul feel pressed to say "I am not lying about being an apostle?"

I too..."survey". I survey a people who believe they would roll out the red carpet if "a" Paul would come to them. I survey a people who believe they know of Paul...how he would look, how he would appear, what he would teach, say and do. I survey a people who, like those who protested to Jesus..."Had we lived in the days of our fathers we would not have stoned the prophets". Today they might say "Paul...we would never give you occasion to make protest to us that you are not lying about being an apostle, we would stand with you "at your first answer"...we would recognize your stature, we would seek you out, come visit you, not neglect you"

WE KNOW! And we know you are a "great" apostle. We read your letters every week down at our Church...you know it...it's called "Saint Paul's Church"...even!

Yes...what would Paul say?
What does...Jesus say?

What might I be missing if I heed not Paul's "stuff" that got worked in him...and through him?

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

How much of Christ do I think I know...but is really "only after the flesh?"

And no less...of my brothers?
 
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gordon 2

Senior Member
Where does spiritual wisdom come from? And who gets to be the spiritual descendants of the Pharisees?

Ah HA! This is where I respond with an all knowing scripture quote to back up why I chart the correct course on the ocean as opposed to all the other fleets and take leave to pride in myself that my smarts are as if a gift from God himself.;):cool:

This is the answer to both questions.


14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things 15 so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

The point being that spiritual wisdom is born of truth and one's individual truth gleaned from scripture alone is for the birds.

But alas I'm willing to admit that a few tubs tack close to mine... :) The faith alone ships for example.
 
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Miguel Cervantes

GON Severe Weatherman
I must be just plain old homegrown Alabama ignorance. I can't hardly decifer a word you fellers are saying sometimes. What I thought gemcgrew was referencing with his questions was Spiritual Pride (arrogance) so I went here;


Romans 11:16-24 English Standard Version (ESV)

16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[a] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
 

Israel

Senior Member
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their hearts.

A man, were he to be hit by lightning five, six, or seven times...might finally be moved to ask "what gives?"

A man rear ended in his vehicle 6 times in about 8 years...might do the same. Each and every time...in his "work" commute. Never once in his many trips otherwise...not to Lowes, not to Walmart, not to feed stores nor burger joints. Always...to...or from..."work". The little of faith said "you must be a late braker!", ha ha ha.

But the truth of this matter is the man was always stopped...when hit.
The man knows...to the world this makes him blameless. Stopped...not willy nilly in the middle of the road...but because all traffic before him...was stopped. And people...the insured, the uninsured, brothers and sisters (some other unknown fleeing the scene) have crunched, rapped, thumped. Little revival meetings followed the last one two weeks ago. The responding deputy a believer and the brother whose first words were..."hey, are you OK? It was my fault man...all my fault".

But, being blameless to the world...means nothing. Jonah had every "right in the world" to board any ship he so chose. Paul said one might know himself as blameless but that did not make him...innocent. And really...what looks more blameless to the world than a man appearing to be going responsibly to his work? Good citizens...all!
As I know...each and every one of you...are.

But...some of you are already gleaning. A man may be...where it is legitimate to be...but not where he is told...to be. And only God knows...as only God knows...a man misplaced...may be the man, though "legitimate" is cause of all the accidents. Even...LOL...the ordained...ones! (Doncha love that part in "the Matrix" where the Oracle tells Neo after he has broken the vase, right after she told him not to have a care about it?..."now what's really gonna fry your noodle is whether or not that would have happened if I didn't tell you...") Ah, you gotta love the Lord...always able to show Himself...even when His name ain't mentioned.

Disciples may come to this point. Nah....lemme be clear...disciples do. Why give you guys "yes and no"...and dishonor you.

"One of you will betray me this night"

Is it I? Is the only question faith will prompt. Children are allowed to play with "it could never be me" (But each man is free to plea "O!...Lord...may you keep me from it) But...we all know that if we hear:

Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about
to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

But...if we don't yet hear...in some self confidence of children "it could never be me"...well, like those reading Moses with a veil...facades and veils can be removed...or lifted...for a kiss.

As a guy whose done a lot of "kissing up" to...it's far better to wait...for the kiss.
Just consider me no more than Judas if you must, kinda like "back from the dead".

"Friend...betrayest thou me...with a kiss?"


"Friend"? Even there? Friend?!!!!

(Oh! Is Judas now going to make some plea for himself?) Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !

Ha! What could Judas ever teach?

How about "make full proof of your ministry"?...or..take another lesson.

Now, there are apostles to to the jew, apostles to the gentile, apostles to the catholics, apostles to the baptists, apostles to the cessationists, apostles to the atheists, apostles to the muslims, apostles to the presbyterians, apostles to the lutherans, hindus, non denominational, episcopalians, universalists, quakers, shakers, bakers, doctors, lawyers, indian chiefs, frauds, theologians, farmers and venture capitalists.

And some of you...know.

Make full proof of your ministry.

Yeah...it's easy enough to imagine who the worst among us is. Or even has been down through many many years.

All I can say is don't be "that guy"...if you really know enough not to.
But this remains:

But when they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand what to say. Instead, speak whatever you are given at that time, for it will not be you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. Brother will betray brother to death,and a father his child. Children will rise against their parents and have them put to death.You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved...

with this:

Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about
to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Lord, forgive my neglecting the mention of prophets.
 
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Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the LORD's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father.

Why would an eternal Father say this to his eternal son? What did Christ gain at his incarnation? Did he become or was it who he already was? Is his sonship directly related to his incarnation? Is that just a role God assumed at the incarnation?
Did the One who would become the Father send the One who would become the Son?

The easier way to ask the questions:
Has the triune God always been the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or did the triune God always exist as such but only assumed these roles in time?

Perhaps Banjo Picker can give us some input on this as well. I'm still waiting on an answer as to when the Son took on the image of God.

If this image includes form and shape, then whenever the Son "became," he had to take on this image to include form and shape.
 
The facts about God apply to the Lord Jesus Christ in His preincarnate state as a Spirit Being, for He is one of the three separate and distinct Spirit Beings making the Deity or Godhead. Until about nineteen hundred years ago the second person of the Deity had the same kind of Spirit body, personal soul, and spirit that the Father and the Holy Spirit still have. At that time one of the three divine persons of the Trinity took human form to redeem the world. This is what has made the difference between the members of the Godhead during the last nineteen hundred years.

THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF JESUS CHRIST
The Bible declares that the person we now know as Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God He had no beginning. It is this time before He became a man that we refer to as His pre-existence. Technically, there is no such thing as existence before Him as God, but He existed before He became a man. Mic. 5:1 ,2 speaks of Him as existing from all eternity. John speaks of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1:1-5). Jesus speaks of Himself as being before Abraham and before the world was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24). Paul speaks of Him as existing before all things and as the Creator and Upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Him (Eph. 3:9) and the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2).
I'm a bit confused. Here you are saying Jesus pre-existed. He was one of the three spirits of the triune God. He later took on human form.
Then later you say this persona of God wasn't the Son. That eternal Sonship is not true and that incarnate sonship explains when Jesus became the Son.

Also adding to this is God having form and shape in his spiritual body. That we as humans have this image as well as Jesus. That Jesus only later took on human form.
Wouldn't he already have human form since humans have his form? Jesus would have already had this form before his incarnation.

How could Jesus pre-exist as one of the three spirits of God and not have the shape and form of God? Jesus did not take on human form, we took on God's form. If in fact God had shape and form.
If this is fact then Jesus already had this shape and form before becoming a human.

How could the Son pre-exist if he wasn't the Son until his incarnation? What was he in this pre-existance? One third of the triune God but not the Son? What was his one third role or existence?
How could the family of God be explained as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit if they have not always been those three?
 
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THE THEORY OF ETERNAL SONSHIP

The word Son in connection with Jesus does not refer to His Deity, but to His humanity. AS GOD, Christ had no beginning, was not begotten, was not the firstborn, was not born, and therefore , was not a Son; but AS MAN HE had a beginning, was begotten, was the first-born of God, was born, and therefore became the Son of God.
The One who became Jesus(son). The Word became flesh(son). The One who was and is the Word. In what capacity was the Word with God? Did he have shape and form?
What fellowship and glory did the Word have with God before he became a Son?
Perhaps the Word was sent by God to become his Son through incarnation. He took on flesh. I can see that. But what was he called while in this pre-existence? Not only what was he called but what was he?
If he was already in the divine family of God, but not yet his Son?
 
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To solve all these unanswerable questions of speculation, let us believe the simple statements of Scripture that the person we now know as the Son of God and Mary was not always God's Son and Mary's Son, that He was always God and a separate person along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, that He became man and the Son of both God and Mary over nineteen hundred years ago for the purpose of redemption, that it was in God's plan that one of the three persons of the Godhead should become man and the Son of the one who became the Father by the power of the Holy Ghost, and that it did not become a reality until it actually took place in Mary about nineteen hundred years ago.
Maybe if I ask you on enough threads you will eventually answer. The person we now know as the Son of God was not always God's Son. He didn't become God's Son until he became Mary's Son as well.

Then you say that He was always God and a separate person along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. That it was in God's plan that one of the three persons should become man. That the person that would "become" the Son was that persona.

That persona would become man and the Son of God and Mary.

Very simple question. What was that persona of the Trinity called before it became the Son?
 
If one wants to say the Word was in God's mind and God became the Son is one thing. Perhaps even the Word being with God and later becoming a Son.

But to say there was a third person of the Trinity that always existed but didn't become a Son until born a human? Then one should be able to easily explain and show who or what that persona of the Trinity was before it became the Son.

If that persona of the Trinity was not yet the Son then it had to be known by some other name.
 
THE THEORY OF ETERNAL SONSHIP

when He became man by becoming the Son of both Mary and God, He is called "The Son of God."

If God had a Son before this, then Jesus is the second-born Son and not "first-born" and "the only begotten Son" of God, as in John 1:18; 3:16-18, 35, 36, and in the passages listed above. Or if, Sonship refers to Deity, then He became God's Son twice; once sometime back in eternity and again when God had a Son by Mary. If He was begotten as God's Son sometime in the eternal past and His Sonship refers to Deity and not to humanity, then who was the mother of this God-Son and when did God have a Son by this other mother? There is no statement in Scripture that Jesus was God's Son from all eternity. .
You make some good points. One I thought of is if Jesus was already a Son, then Mary would also have to be eternal. In an out of time way Mary was already his Mother. Otherwise her Son would be older than she was.
If he was already a Son then who was his Mother? How could God's Son become a Son before he had a Mother? If he was already a Son then he became another Son when he became God and Mary's Son. If He was already God's Son(deity) then he became God and Mary's Son(deity & human), would that not make him another Son?

If the pre-existing Son of God became human? What did he gain when he became Mary's Son? Humanity of course but did he not become the divine human Son of God and Mary?

Was Mary just the mother of his human persona? Was God just the Father of his divine persona? I don't think so.
 
Thread starter #33
1, 2, 3, 4, are on post #8 of this thread.
5. "God gave his only begotten Son" is taken to prove that God must have had a Son before He gave Him , but this must be understood in connection with other passages. It is certain that the second person of the Godhead had to become a man and the Son of God and Mary before either God or Mary could have a Son; so God giving His Son must refer to the time of the crucifixion when God gave His Son and the Son gave Himself to redeem man "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

This time is stated to be at the crucifixion, for it was then that the sins of the whole world were atoned for and all men were crucified with Him (Rom. 6:4-6; 8:32; Gal. 1:4; Eph. 5:25; 1 Tim. 2:6; Titus 2:14; Pet. 2:24). The time then when God gave His Son that men should believe in Him to be saved was the time He gave Himself to save all men, and not at the time he was born. At the time He was born He did not save the world and could not have done so. He had to grow to manhood to die for men. We also read of God giving Christ the headship of the Church, and this was even after the crucifixion (Eph. 1:20-22).

The birth of Christ was necessary for God to have a Son to give to die for the world later. The purpose of the birth was that, He might have a Son to give as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world. God did not give Him to die at that time He was born, but gave Him to die when He was a man and after He had been the So of God and Mary for over thirty-three years. Because God now has a Son, His giving the Son can be spoken of even at birth in the same sense that He was called "Christ."
 
1, 2, 3, 4, are on post #8 of this thread.
5. "God gave his only begotten Son" is taken to prove that God must have had a Son before He gave Him , but this must be understood in connection with other passages. It is certain that the second person of the Godhead had to become a man and the Son of God and Mary before either God or Mary could have a Son; so God giving His Son must refer to the time of the crucifixion when God gave His Son and the Son gave Himself to redeem man "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

This time is stated to be at the crucifixion, for it was then that the sins of the whole world were atoned for and all men were crucified with Him (Rom. 6:4-6; 8:32; Gal. 1:4; Eph. 5:25; 1 Tim. 2:6; Titus 2:14; Pet. 2:24). The time then when God gave His Son that men should believe in Him to be saved was the time He gave Himself to save all men, and not at the time he was born. At the time He was born He did not save the world and could not have done so. He had to grow to manhood to die for men. We also read of God giving Christ the headship of the Church, and this was even after the crucifixion (Eph. 1:20-22).

The birth of Christ was necessary for God to have a Son to give to die for the world later. The purpose of the birth was that, He might have a Son to give as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world. God did not give Him to die at that time He was born, but gave Him to die when He was a man and after He had been the So of God and Mary for over thirty-three years. Because God now has a Son, His giving the Son can be spoken of even at birth in the same sense that He was called "Christ."
Is "Divine Sonship" the same thing as "Eternal Sonship?"
 

Madman

Senior Member
Where does spiritual wisdom come from? And who gets to be the spiritual descendants of the Pharisees?
I believe the idea that "just me and my Bible is all I need" can get us into trouble today.

That is one reason we need the church.
"The church to teach, the Bible to prove."
It held the unity for 1054 years.

Acts 8:
30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.


31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Romans 10:
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?


Luke 24:
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.


2 Peter 3:16 (speaking of Paul)
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
 

j_seph

Senior Member
It's no wonder Christianity is shrinking and other religions or no religion at all is growing. Having Faith and believing in God is soooo much simpler than all of this.
Sometimes we are so smart that we try to sit down and understand it, all of it. We try to understand it carnally rather than spiritually. I feel and believe that if there is something in the bible you do not understand, that you want to understand then you need to go to the one who inspired it. Ask God himself to show you, teach you, and to help you understand. I agree with what you said, and if God ain't in it then it is of man from the start and as humans we will mess it all up.
 

Madman

Senior Member
It's no wonder Christianity is shrinking and other religions or no religion at all is growing. Having Faith and believing in God is soooo much simpler than all of this.

The orthodox religions are growing, including Judaism. People want honest answers to honest questions, unfortunately, 500 years ago brought about every man doing what he wanted. Just as Israel had no earthly king to follow, today the vast majority has no central leadership to look to for spiritual matters.

Judges 21:
25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
 

Miguel Cervantes

GON Severe Weatherman
The orthodox religions are growing, including Judaism. People want honest answers to honest questions, unfortunately, 500 years ago brought about every man doing what he wanted. Just as Israel had no earthly king to follow, today the vast majority has no central leadership to look to for spiritual matters.

Judges 21:
25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Fair points.
Other religions, even the non-religion of Islam demands reverence and respect.
IF there is one thing missing in the Concert Venues of US Religion it is reverence.
 

Israel

Senior Member
There is a concord of Spirit. Men may not be able to point to the facts of it as a verifiable proof "in the natural"...but isn't that precisely as it should be?
Men seeking their Creator called out from every kindred, nation, tribes and tongue?
As the knowledge of the Christ only comes by revelation, must not the knowledge of His bride come no less?
 

Miguel Cervantes

GON Severe Weatherman
There is a concord of Spirit. Men may not be able to point to the facts of it as a verifiable proof "in the natural"...but isn't that precisely as it should be?
Men seeking their Creator called out from every kindred, nation, tribes and tongue?
As the knowledge of the Christ only comes by revelation, must not the knowledge of His bride come no less?
Were he to return today he would berate His bride as the prostitute she has become, in the US at least. On the surface that may shock some of you as a harsh statement, but analyze the facts and ponder on it a while.
 
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