The Union of the Two Natures of Jesus Christ

Paul didn't, you did.

O.K. one last try.

What Paul said.

You seem to want to accept that


but reject the preface

which clearly shows who is in control. God acts in every instance, men react in every instance.
I don't agree with your accusation of my alledged rejection. But since you said "seemed", I will disregard it as misunderstanding.
 
I don't agree with your accusation of my alledged rejection. But since you said "seemed", I will disregard it as misunderstanding.
Without any debate, God is the only way I ever do anything good.
But hear me out. Even those "in Christ" serve the law of sin from time to time. And every time, without fail, we are delivered out of it. Not prevented from it, but delivered out of it.
The word in blue is where I see your rejection. You really don't believe what you said in the preceding sentence.
 
Thread starter #44
If we can understand these things, we certainly can understand how God could become so perfectly human and yet remain so perfectly divine as to be a perfect union--God and man in one personality. Whether the divine attributes and powers of God in Christ were limited and to what extent is a great question in Christian circles. Whether He laid them aside entirely for a time, or whether they were possessed by Him and voluntarily limited will always be a point of controversy. However, this much is settled that He was limited in the days of His flesh. Whether He was limited constitutionally or voluntarily is not the point. It is a fact that if it were done constitutionally it was nevertheless voluntary as stated in John 10:18; Heb. 10:5-9. He was not forced to do one thing. Everything was a voluntary action on His part. It matters not whether it was constitutional, or whether He still retained all the divine powers and attributes in His person and chose to limit their use for His time of life on Earth: the fact remains that He was limited as a man, and if His choice was so powerful as to do away with all use of them, what is the difference between laying them aside and still retaining them without power to use them?


It was important that He limit Himself as a man to set the right example for man so that he can be inspired to live like God on Earth by the same means Christ used. For all the arguments about His having two personalities, two natures in one personality, human nature without personality, or divine nature without human traits--the fact will always remain that He was both human and divine, and if some cannot understand the how of it, the fact of it can be believed and must be if we want harmony of all Scriptures. One certainty is that His human nature had no separate existence before its union with the divine and is not in itself a separate personality from the divine person who came incarnated in human flesh.

It was not only important that He had two natures, human and divine, for the sake of man, but also for the sake of God, to be a true mediator between God and man. His twofold nature gives Him fellowship with both parties and capability of representing both to reconcile both. As God He can uphold the dignity of Deity, and as man He can be truly sympathetic and meet the needs of man. Because He is God His atonement has infinite value and effect.
 
The word in blue is where I see your rejection. You really don't believe what you said in the preceding sentence.
The word in blue has zero bearing on the previous sentence. It is simply a connecting word attaching a hope that Hummer would hear me further.

My chief hope in all of my questioning was that we could discuss and get a clearer picture of the kingdom within us. That got derailed quickly, and turned into something else entirely . The "King" is sovereign. I am not debating this. In His sovereignty, He has also given liberty to them that He calls. Liberty to walk in newness of life. Do we sometimes still walk in the flesh? Yes we do. That's all I've been saying.

Now, let me pose this question to you ,and a simple yes or no would be nice.
(I worded it badly to Hummer
and it caused him to misunderstand,so let me change it a little):
If I grieve the Holy Spirit, is it because the Holy Spirit led me to grieve Him?
 
If, in the leading to a "greater" a "lesser" must be tolerated, or is...allowed for...

What does grace look like in truth?

How is it perceived...in truth?
 
The word in blue has zero bearing on the previous sentence. It is simply a connecting word attaching a hope that Hummer would hear me further.
:unsure:

My chief hope in all of my questioning was that we could discuss and get a clearer picture of the kingdom within us. That got derailed quickly, and turned into something else entirely . The "King" is sovereign. I am not debating this. In His sovereignty, He has also given liberty to them that He calls. Liberty to walk in newness of life. Do we sometimes still walk in the flesh? Yes we do. That's all I've been saying.
How are you using the word "liberty"? Free from control?

Now, let me pose this question to you ,and a simple yes or no would be nice.
(I worded it badly to Hummer
and it caused him to misunderstand,so let me change it a little):
If I grieve the Holy Spirit, is it because the Holy Spirit led me to grieve Him?
Yes
 
I have grieved or quenched the Holy Spirit a few times. I remember once at work this co-worker was testifying. I could feel the Holy Spirit's presence. I felt like shouting and crying at the same time but didn't won't to be looked at weirdly so I quenched the fire.

I just started thinking about something else to not get caught up in the way I was feeling. Then I wondered if I had denied the Holy Spirit.

I thought it was my liberty. Maybe God had a reason to quench His Spirit if it was His control of my liberty.

I wonder why I was the only co-worker other than the speaker who was overtaken. The others just sit there like; "what is this lunatic doing?" but I felt the Spirit's presence through this man's witness.
 
Liberty to walk in newness of life, free from the bondage of sin.
In my story though, did I have the liberty to quench the Holy Spirit? I understand my liberty from the bondage of sin. That is what grace is all about.
I'm not sure what liberty God still gives me to sin or to quench His Spirit. I can't imagine even having the power to quench God's Spirit yet there are verses telling me to be careful not to do it.

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God.

Wouldn't I have to have the liberty to walk in the flesh in order to quench the Spirit of God?
 
Using freedom verses;

Galatians 5:13
You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

1 Corinthians 8:9
Be careful, however, that your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.

1 Peter 2:16
Live in freedom, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Maybe there is two liberties. Freedom of Sin and the freedom to sin. Of course there are many verses on the Freedom of Sin as well. The freedom from the bondage of sin is definitely maintained by God.

The freedom to sin? That's the question that I don't have an answer for.
 
The freedom to sin? That's the question that I don't have an answer for.
But solid food belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The part highlighted in red. Not that the other doesn't speak.

We are in a very different school. If all is not to the end of becoming full grown friends of our (school) Master (teacher, instructor, Lord)...then I have entirely missed, and am now missing completely, any and all sense of what is made ours in Jesus Christ.

But, that's OK...this being wrong about stuff...someone is watching. Correcting. Rebuking.

And we (or even a man such as myself) may learn, simply verbalizing the lesson plan is not the same as attaining to it. There's no shame in disciples being told:

“You do not know what you are asking,”

in response to:

(They answered, “Grant that one of us may sit at Your right hand and the other at Your left in Your glory.” )

Finding out about "not knowing much" is made grief-less by the Head Master of this school. He knows of all and any of our supposing. Part of it, maybe all of it (or at least as great as any "lesson") is

"but all things are naked and opened to the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

The Lord knows all. It's like such a basic thing to repeat, such a basic understanding...even of definition. Omniscience. But saying "omniscience" and living in awareness of the Omniscient One...and the significance of it...well...

What can a man "come up with"...there? What can a man find, dig up, unearth...that would be new? Huh? Lord knows...I've tried. The Lord knows...(and these would all be fit only for laughter) to "come up with something to present" something mined from myself, in myself...to give "back". (And miners can find themselves with very dirty hands)

Something has to be settled. No more digging in the earth to bring Christ up. No more trying to ascend...to bring Him down. Something has to be...settled.

So, the Giver, who alone is Giver, not so very long ago, gave me something. To repeat it now is no embarrassment...even though...of all men who have ever confessed His name, spoken of grace, perhaps even believed he knew "something of it", the question...which I cannot deny was "given me" is so very very a basic one (as seen now) that everyone has the sure right to say

"Obviously man...you have never known what you were talking about if the Lord had to ask you...that"

But ask He did. (and I believe that I too, have the Spirit of God)

And the question was this:

"Why do you let my presence immediately generate in you...this thing of demand?"
And the (much softer in Spirit) next words came, also a question...but so very very much softer (as you might see)
"Why can't I just be with you...to be with you?"

The Omnipresent One, the Omnipotent One...who needs ask no man "if His presence is allowed", nor need ask any man "how might you see better in response to My presence?" Asked. Of a man. And not just any man...but a man who thought he knew, and could tell others....what grace is.

A drafted man, a conscripted man, may be very far from knowing the significance of the uniform he as now been given to wear. But, make no mistake...it's a clear signal and a sign to things of darkness of which he may be totally ignorant, though told again and again by His Captain "keep your head on a swivel"...there are things of which you know nothing waiting to strip you to shame. But be of good cheer! This uniform (uni-form) is tested and victorious in all, and of that I will make plain both to you, and in you.

Jesus said to her, “I am theresurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.







Do you believe this?”



Thanks be to God! Thanks be to God!

I hear a question! I hear that question! I thought it was men asking me to probe me. Painfully.
I thought I was asking myself...to probe...me. Doubtfully.

But I hear the question! I hear...who asks it!

NO shame. NO shame...in the God who comes to man. To give.
 
I can see that side of the argument. An omniscient God chooses whom to give the indwelling of his Spirit to. It would stand to reason if that Spirit can be quenched or grieved or even resisted, then it would have to be that Spirit doing it.
I guess I was looking at it more as the Spirit "allowing" that liberty. It is a paradox in my eyes. The liberty to grieve, quench, or resist the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

This "conflict" is the paradox. This struggle between Spirit and flesh. It doesn't seem like it should still be there but yet it is. How could I possibly do whatever I want?

Romans 7:19
For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do.

It's like I'm somehow able to go back and forth between flesh and Spirit. I hope I'm not "asking" God why it is done or "allowed."
Maybe when I wonder, I'm in that Flesh mode and not blindly in the Spirit mode.
Is that what we are to do? Be blind to the understanding in order to accept the understanding? Shame on my Flesh for seeking.
If it is my flesh doing so and not my spirit.
 
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Now that we're on the subject of out two natures for lack of a better term. The old and the new, the flesh and spirit, etc.

The struggle and/or conflict of flesh and Spirit.

Now that we are a new person, are we mostly in that mode? The Spiritual mode and then every once in awhile we regress back in the old person mode or flesh mode?
I mean even though we are now in a new mode, we haven't completely given up the flesh. Therefore that struggle between flesh and Spirit still exist.
It's like the flesh mode creeps back in and we may not even realize it. Then all at once, the Spirit leads us back into our spirit mode.

It's not like we actually leave the spirit mode. We don't become that old person again. Just some of the habits of that old person linger on even after we become a new person.
Even though we have crucified the flesh by believing, some of it's being is still within us. We may end up living with it until we completely give up the flesh.

Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin

Galatians 5:24
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I can see that our old self was crucified along with it's passions and desires. Yet we are still able or allowed to quench the Spirit.
I'm still having trouble seeing that quenching coming from the Spirit itself.
It feels more like it's from me. My old self sneaking back in. Even though those passions and desires were crucified. I think Paul also wondered why are they still there? If they were crucified, why are the desires of the flesh still here?
 
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