Throw this fact into the coyote/wolf/dog discussion

[JackSprat]

I knew the Indians had dogs (their only domesticated animal), but I never thought about what happened to them.

I also know about the Carolina dogs.

But this article is really interesting considering that we are only talking about 600 years.

https://www.ajc.com/news/study-reveals-clues-fate-early-north-american-dogs/lip3jNzfdM0VxvOBcjRlRO/

 

[Worlldbeater]

I never thought about them disappearing. Parvo and other canine diseases could have something to do with it, just as small pox took it,s toll on the Native Americans.

 

[JackSprat]

If you read the journals from De Soto's expedition, the Spaniards relied on "war dogs" to fight and intimidate the Indians.

As they got inland in Georgia, the Indians were apparently well stocked with dogs, which they raised for food, and traded with the Spaniards who used the dogs likewise. The Indians had LOTS of dogs.

I suspect that you are correct on the disease. But, if that is the case, why didn't it have the same effect on coyotes and wolves. Even today, parvo and distemper are limiting factors on coyotes, but they sure as heck aren't going extinct.

Also, remember that by the time De Soto strolled through Ga. the Spaniards were well established in Mexico, Central and South America. Dogs being dogs, you'd think the Indian dogs would have left some genetic markers somewhere.

Another conclusion I get from the article, is that dogs and coyotes and wolves coexisted in the America's for 20,000 years or so, without any significant interbreeding. Genetic studies on the "Eastern Coyote" establish that this is still the case.

 

[someguyintraffic]

I believe this crazy mutt has some fox in him. A stray I took in. He is domesticated alright but has a wild side. He sails off the porch each morning and bounds through the woods like a fox pouncing around for mice. Has bitten me quite a few times when rough housing with him. Really bitten. Goes 1 to 100 when tusslin'.

His name is Foxx.

 

[Angel Eyes]

I did not know that a fox and dog could breed.

 

[NCHillbilly]

If you read the journals from De Soto's expedition, the Spaniards relied on "war dogs" to fight and intimidate the Indians.

As they got inland in Georgia, the Indians were apparently well stocked with dogs, which they raised for food, and traded with the Spaniards who used the dogs likewise. The Indians had LOTS of dogs.

I suspect that you are correct on the disease. But, if that is the case, why didn't it have the same effect on coyotes and wolves. Even today, parvo and distemper are limiting factors on coyotes, but they sure as heck aren't going extinct.

Also, remember that by the time De Soto strolled through Ga. the Spaniards were well established in Mexico, Central and South America. Dogs being dogs, you'd think the Indian dogs would have left some genetic markers somewhere.

Another conclusion I get from the article, is that dogs and coyotes and wolves coexisted in the America's for 20,000 years or so, without any significant interbreeding. Genetic studies on the "Eastern Coyote" establish that this is still the case.

The genetic studies I've read on the eastern coyote pretty much show that none of them are pure coyote, and most are a coyote/wolf/dog mix?

Interbreeding with coyotes is one of the biggest problems that they are having with the red wolf project, too-that's well documented.

 

[Mexican Squealer]

Ain't no dog and fox reproduction

 

[redneck_billcollector]

The genetic studies I've read on the eastern coyote pretty much show that none of them are pure coyote, and most are a coyote/wolf/dog mix?

Interbreeding with coyotes is one of the biggest problems that they are having with the red wolf project, too-that's well documented.

I posted one of the more recent DNA studies done by UF a while back on this forum and, while they did find some domestic dog DNA in SOME of the samples, it was nominal, however they did find wolf DNA in every sample varying up to over 10% in a few.

 

[redneck_billcollector]

I always heard the Carolina Dog was a relic from the pre-columbian days.

 

[Tom W.]

I've read that foxes are much more closely related to cats. Coydogs are a real problem. But the coyotes would rather eat a small dog than mate with it.

 

[JustUs4All]

But the coyotes would rather eat a small dog than mate with it.

Do you mind sharing with us just how you determined this to be true?

 

[Dbender]

I've never seen a dog that liked a coyote?

 

[Nicodemus]

Do you mind sharing with us just how you determined this to be true?

I can`t pull you up any links, but it`s common knowledge that red wolves killed dogs, as they do all competitors for prey. That`s why red foxes suffer so badly in this part of the country. They can`t climb trees to escape like gray foxes can. Over the past 25 years I`ve seen this for myself on a large tract of land.

 

[Tom W.]

Talking with local farmers over the years and the local CO down in Barbour county when I lived there.

Would you be suggesting that I'm not speaking the truth?

 

[JustUs4All]

No, sir. I do not doubt your hypothesis. The question was rhetorical, intended to highlight something that I found humerus. I did it quietly because of the nature of the humor. I expected most to miss it but did not intend to question your truthfulness or offer insult. I will be the first to admit that I frequently see humor where others do not and sometimes fail miserably when trying to point it out.

In my experience, there has been a significant reduction in the numbers of ferrel cats and stray dogs that correlates pretty well with an increase in my encounters with coyotes in my area.

 

[Tom W.]

Not a problem. Had I been upset I would have probably been banned for a while. I can roll with the flow also. Sorry if it sounded mean....