What is "first love"?

#21
I thought there may be more to the "this is why".

PM or email me the verses you claim to show salvation by works and I will be happy to refute your claim.
Another hint that John's identity has been stolen, a book falsely written in his name. In the gospel of John, and 1st,2nd and 3rd John, John never tells us his name. Not once. Yet in Revelation, he tells us 4 times that he is John. Hmmmm trying a little to hard there. Not proof, but interesting. The proof is in the contradicting theology against grace
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Thread starter #22
Here lets put it this way. Did you know your wife when you were first dating? The answer is absolutely yes. But after years of marriage, and communicating, your knowledge of her is far greater. Spending time with her increases your love for her. that is what Jesus wants from us. Spending time in His Word, spending time on your knees, spending time with Him pouring out your heart, calling upon Him to save, and deliver you. That is the first love He is referring to. And yes He had better know you when you breath your last![

Ok thanks.
 

Israel

Senior Member
#23
If there are sides...I think maybe I see both.

In the beginning God...

Isn't that inescapable for us all? And indeed...so thankfully so? We didn't originate this, we didn't start this, we didn't "come up with this" in any sense at all. God...beginning and end of all things.

I see great relief in that, great unburdening in that. But I am also aware of this, my own likelihood of bearing right accusation as one finding a utility for the truth and there basing its verity as subsequent thing. In other words do I find it true because it is useful (as it surely is to me)...or...is it of some utility (seen by me) because it is true?

I think we all know the accusation in almost all that we handle of truth..."You only call it true...because it is useful to somebody like you"

And of this I am persuaded we must all beware (and be aware) to the measure we have heard of such a warning in discipline to our soul. Not everything that seems of a utility (to a man, or any man) is sufficient to defense as truth.

But, likewise we do have this commendation "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free". What an impetus! What a compelling is there! Liberty...as none we have known, of none we have yet experienced. Our imaginations of what liberty is must make way. And again there is warning if we think liberty is to be for us alone a personal playground; that if misapprehended we must be warned to not use it as a cloak for sin. And we are told we are judged (in word and deed) by the law that gives liberty, not as hoarders, but those given to seeing others set free.

O! The chastenings found here! Is this thing (whatever it may be) true? But then, Is it beneficial? Are any of us unaware of a thing that is given to "showing off"? And when, and if, we are made aware of such a thing by reproof or conviction...what is remedy? Can it be anyone but Jesus Christ? To see in Him how, that in all liberty that even in all things are subject to Himself...he walked so circumspectly...meat in due season...to His brothers. His beloved. Things never said otherwise...but in benefit toward their enlightenment. Their...liberty.

Yet...even in all of this there remains a rather plain thing. Things are so often said in their now (even as in our now) that have no present appearance of utility in knowing, nevertheless the Lord knows at a time appointed they (we) will then know we needed to be told them.

As our brother Paul wrote, being in the experience of Jesus Christ:
Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

So, utility is often for us hard to determine. Not only in regard to what we may feel a need to say...but surely likewise in the things at present...being said to us. Even by each of us to one another.

We can make cases for things, we can seek to support by various means a verity of certain things of which we are convinced and persuaded. Yet it remains "wisdom is justified by her children"...what is of necessity will always be made known by the beneficial fruit that ensues.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Thread starter #24
If there are sides...I think maybe I see both.

In the beginning God...

Isn't that inescapable for us all? And indeed...so thankfully so? We didn't originate this, we didn't start this, we didn't "come up with this" in any sense at all. God...beginning and end of all things.

I see great relief in that, great unburdening in that. But I am also aware of this, my own likelihood of bearing right accusation as one finding a utility for the truth and there basing its verity as subsequent thing. In other words do I find it true because it is useful (as it surely is to me)...or...is it of some utility (seen by me) because it is true?

I think we all know the accusation in almost all that we handle of truth..."You only call it true...because it is useful to somebody like you"

And of this I am persuaded we must all beware (and be aware) to the measure we have heard of such a warning in discipline to our soul. Not everything that seems of a utility (to a man, or any man) is sufficient to defense as truth.

But, likewise we do have this commendation "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free". What an impetus! What a compelling is there! Liberty...as none we have known, of none we have yet experienced. Our imaginations of what liberty is must make way. And again there is warning if we think liberty is to be for us alone a personal playground; that if misapprehended we must be warned to not use it as a cloak for sin. And we are told we are judged (in word and deed) by the law that gives liberty, not as hoarders, but those given to seeing others set free.

O! The chastenings found here! Is this thing (whatever it may be) true? But then, Is it beneficial? Are any of us unaware of a thing that is given to "showing off"? And when, and if, we are made aware of such a thing by reproof or conviction...what is remedy? Can it be anyone but Jesus Christ? To see in Him how, that in all liberty that even in all things are subject to Himself...he walked so circumspectly...meat in due season...to His brothers. His beloved. Things never said otherwise...but in benefit toward their enlightenment. Their...liberty.

Yet...even in all of this there remains a rather plain thing. Things are so often said in their now (even as in our now) that have no present appearance of utility in knowing, nevertheless the Lord knows at a time appointed they (we) will then know we needed to be told them.

As our brother Paul wrote, being in the experience of Jesus Christ:
Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

So, utility is often for us hard to determine. Not only in regard to what we may feel a need to say...but surely likewise in the things at present...being said to us. Even by each of us to one another.

We can make cases for things, we can seek to support by various means a verity of certain things of which we are convinced and persuaded. Yet it remains "wisdom is justified by her children"...what is of necessity will always be made known by the beneficial fruit that ensues.
Thanks.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#25
Because I know how the books were put together, the arguments over whether to include them or not. We have tons of writings, example, Eusebius write in 315AD that it is a forgery. I know the time period history in which the canon was formalized. Who decided which books and why. Who the players were, their beliefs, etc. How biased men won out to impose their beliefs. A time in history exactly like we see today with the democrats and republicans, each side trying to win at all cost. Looking for dirt on each other in order to change the outcome by means of association. I know the language differences, the lingo differences, the content differences, the doctrine differences in this book supposedly written by the same John in the NT. However it's not the same person. It was only allowed into the canon under the quize that John wrote it, but he did not. The original KJ bible also did not acknowledge the book of Revelation. Anyone can clearly see that the book is not a book of grace. Grace has zero works. Any works and it's no longer grace. Paul would have faught this fake writing with all his might. Imagine how hard he worked to bring people to grace only to have someone come after him and say saved by grace, maintained by works. I know these things because I don't blindly follow the crowd. You take your stand based on religion, traditional thinking. Not ever once considering what I am saying is true, like a robot programmed to think a certain way. With no reasonable attempt at proving me wrong, I'll just expect a "no it's not"


I know you weren't there, so what you think you know, you had to learn by it being written and passed down over many centuries.

Maybe... Just maybe, what you think you know, is the actual fraudelant claim? Maybe you've been duped by a non inspired historian?

It certainly seems more like to me you have, since Johns letter to the seven churches in Asia, is not only perfect in context, but fills the void in his Gospel..... It is Johns Olivet Discourse.
 
#26
I know you weren't there, so what you think you know, you had to learn by it being written and passed down over many centuries.

Maybe... Just maybe, what you think you know, is the actual fraudelant claim? Maybe you've been duped by a non inspired historian?

It certainly seems more like to me you have, since Johns letter to the seven churches in Asia, is not only perfect in context, but fills the void in his Gospel..... It is Johns Olivet Discourse.
So you don't see a conflict with grace in the book of Revelation? Saved by grace maintained by works. "If you don't do this, I will spew you out of my mouth".
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#27
So you don't see a conflict with grace in the book of Revelation? Saved by grace maintained by works. "If you don't do this, I will spew you out of my mouth".
When you consider audience relevance and the proper translation of melo, in that text, then you will understand it wasn't about spewing out a saved person at all.
 
#28
When you consider audience relevance and the proper translation of melo, in that text, then you will understand it wasn't about spewing out a saved person at all.
The entire text involving the church of Ladeocia is a train wreck. It is a church, is it not? Thus he is not talking to a secular group. " If you overcome" "If you" all over the place in Revelation. If you deny this contradicts grace then I have to conclude you have blinders on. Grace is 100%. It contains no ifs, except "remaining in grace". Grace does not weight out or measure, or label hot or cold. I'm taking my stand on grace alone
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#29
The entire text involving the church of Ladeocia is a train wreck. It is a church, is it not? Thus he is not talking to a secular group. " If you overcome" "If you" all over the place in Revelation. If you deny this contradicts grace then I have to conclude you have blinders on. Grace is 100%. It contains no ifs, except "remaining in grace". Grace does not weight out or measure, or label hot or cold. I'm taking my stand on grace alone
Lol.... What you fail to see is if they failed He was about to spit them out. I understand your confusion, it's built on your futurist hermeneutic...... But I understand that Jesus was about to return to redeem the church body, consummate the wedding , and fully establish the Kingdom..... Those not faithfully in the body would be vomited up.

The book is of things which must soon take place, and Jesus is telling the church in laodicea, he was about to spit them out...Its a perfect text, perfect context, perfect book, and relates to all of the other books perfectly.
 

Israel

Senior Member
#30
The entire text involving the church of Ladeocia is a train wreck. It is a church, is it not? Thus he is not talking to a secular group. " If you overcome" "If you" all over the place in Revelation. If you deny this contradicts grace then I have to conclude you have blinders on. Grace is 100%. It contains no ifs, except "remaining in grace". Grace does not weight out or measure, or label hot or cold. I'm taking my stand on grace alone
There is instruction...in grace, is there not?

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ...

Does not our Lord bring to light for us what was plainly hidden to us in our former estate...and that being specifically in the matter of consequence...and consequences? We did not see the connections (so to speak) of a this being done here...will produce a that...there. How all things have a matter of produce?

Faith appears among mere men as the weakest of things, a sort of diaphanous and tenuous relationship to "the real"...something accounted of as less than true substance. But our Lord teaches us quite the opposite, does he not? It is in reality a very strong thing, so much so that a grain of it is capable of moving mountains...things of such seeming magnitude and gravity (to the mere man) but yet, these things are subject to faith.

How is it not the Lord's right, yes, more so the rather His duty toward those things which are His by purchase of redemption (and acknowledge it thus) now less fit to a continuance in instruction?

The Lord sees...and knows outcomes at which we may sometimes only guess or speculate upon (and likewise their effects upon the whole of His body) and exercises His authority to bring about what is benefit to all.

What you may see ( but I cannot speak for you) as perhaps threat is really not so. He is stating outcomes to what must be reproved, in order to cease walking a false way and receiving such grief as must come to whatever measure, and in whatever measure, the way of truth is abandoned.

We remain a dependent people, maybe more so in consciousness than we could have ever apprehended before. And in this dependence (at least I am discovering) is much need for reminder. It is not that we have not heard, not been told, but there remains that admonition always, which is always of benefit..."be careful how you hear".

Yes grace. Grace even exercised in being willing to repeat, to our benefit, those things that we might think are so plain...but yet in some way have not been allowed their full course through us.
 

Israel

Senior Member
#31
This song has been so much on my heart and in my mind and mouth...in relating to the OP.

 
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