Where's Bro David's thread?

[NCHillbilly]

I can’t disagree except a rock is something we can see where it lands. And it’s something we can do and not read about.

Faith is unseen. Remove all bible stories and it really doesn’t affect our faith. It isn’t in a talking snake or any such stories.

Remember, look through the eyes of those 6,000 years ago at how things looked and were described by them and use common sense. I wonder what the differences are between now and then of the sound a sea shell makes.

I’ve never seen a talking snake and probably would be the first one to shoot it and the last one to tell anyone it talked.

As far as what non believers think about the sanity or questioning believers intelligence, to each his own. That’s always been, always will be.

I think where the line is drawn is when non believers ask for evidence without “regurgitated scripture”, yet regurgitated scripture is exactly where non believers go after claiming certain things.

It’s true that anyone can take a scripture and make it say or mean whatever they want, but when you use the entire Bible, it’s a different outcome and when you don’t, it reveals a lack of understanding of the Bible.

Further, when thousands of denominations and “Christians” tell non believers thats not what that means”.........it does question why is it just non believers and some radical Muslims that think scripture commands to rape and kill?

Other than that, I agree, some people, including Christians fail to exercise common sense.

Agreed for the most part. The "look through the eyes of those back in the Bible times and how things looked to and were described by them and use common sense" part of your statement is the key to having a legitimate discussion about it. Anyone who fails to apply that, and repeats obvious scientific impossibilities as literal fact because they were described that way by people long ago who didn't understand them, is not helping their case. They just look gullible and unwilling to use their brain that God gave them. If you are willing to admit that the Bible has flaws in it from the time and circumstances of its writing, and is not necessarily all literal, then I can discuss it with you, but if you are a literalist, it's not so easy.

If you were a man in 2,000 BC, you might be pardoned for believing that a man could be swallowed by a whale and live three days and nights; or, not knowing about other continents or anywhere really outside of your own vicinity, believing that a man could round up every species of animal on the earth and stuff them into a boat 450 feet long, etc. If you still believe those things to be possible now, there is a flaw in your logic somewhere.

 

[bullethead]

Those things can be removed from the Bible AFTER a person is a believer Spotlite, but if removed before there is no WoW factor which keeps the attention to read the rest.

 

[ambush80]

Well


I am glad you have "shown up" again.

You once said something like..."You guys remind me of an ex-girlfirend I had, I could never do anything right"

I meant to ask...had you dated my wife before I married her?

Now, admittedly that's an exaggeration, and no doubt a bit facetious. And a facile understanding would take it has having a bit of fun at her expense.

It's not.

Among the things I could never get over to anyone by explanation...(Alchemy-ed as 1eye said) is how much I eventually find beneficial...in resistance.

But I do. I absolutely hate finding it when I do...make no mistake, that's precisely because I don't know just how needful it is to someone like me. To myself I always make the most perfect of sense...and I mean so much so...that only a fool can't see how much sense and how right I am. I mean...it's the plainest thing I know!

So, I do have a woman.She may know me better than anyone, and probably does...of all collecting dust on their feet. Now here's the weirdest thing...I know she loves me! How? Cause she is still here!

Yeah...some may say I set the bar low. (How very wrong they would be!)

You guys only get the merest taste of "what I am like". You think I mansplain much? Ha ha ha ha. YOU think me obtuse? Ha!

Hey, have you ever met a condescending and presumptuous little twerp (and so much so with self inflatable ego) that you slit his throat while he slept?

No?

Good.

Then it's safe for me to continue.

Anyway...this resistance thing that seems unavoidable....well, like I said I could never convince anyone (cause try as I might I can't even convince myself) is way better than a thousand "Amens". It just feels lousy. It only feels...wrong.

But. If one gets "hit with them" enough...and gets past the place of both thinking "I should probably be different" and no less important...gets past the place of imputing to another "they must really need me to be different"...so that it becomes a total wash...then you get free of both feeling like you need to be anyone other than who you are...and likewise free of instantly imputing to another...just because they say "I am not right" doesn't mean they are going to kill me while I sleep.


For as much as I (or any of us may sense) in any relationship...(wives included) that their telling me I am wrong...does NOT MEAN they want to replace me with someone else...well...one never gets to this knowing until one is pressed past the "rabbit strategy" to find out someone can indeed LOVE YOU...(and not want you replaced) in complete opposition to the previous need one thought was basis to "always appear right"

The question becomes "how can someone love me in all my wrongness...shouldn't I (and isn't their love?) based on seeing me...as right?"

Now brothers all, if you called my wife today, I can absolutely guarantee you...she will not "drop a dime" on me in regards to any of these things I admit of myself.
You will not get her to utter one bad thing about me...as obvious as they are.
(And this forum is like the smallest of my exercises in relationships....but not in any way made of less importance to me in its size) I spend hours at home, hours at work...so I get that my "smell" is to you all, granted very little in experience.

But...it's enough, ain't it! Thankfully, some ain't shy about mentioning it. And I need that as much as I need air. I need to be reminded always..."you be you" and let him be him...even if his reaction is "you're stinking up the place" Can't you change? Can't you refrain?

I don't know...can you?

Cause I found a wife who loves me (yeah! she does!) when I clearly saw the choice...pressed upon me..."you can have love, or you can try to preserve your idol of yourself" but it will mean allowing your feet nailed down and not bolting till you finally see that your "order" is simply chaos to everyone...else.

And vice versa. Of course I could have never imagined love would be found there just...."in the staying". Or such rich reward. Yeah, I am in all ways honored (and I do not say this lightly at all) to have a woman who, to her bones, hates lying and would rather die than be found in one...not only able...but willing to stay. And that...with me. I do hope each of you is so honored. I am quite transparent to her (and she is not reluctant to let me know when I get all "Machiavellian")...so...how can this be? Transparent...but lovable?

I know what I am about to say makes absolutely no sense (and can't be Alcehemy-ed) into a thing grasped as one might grasp an equation, or even a lug wrench.

Jesus is both impossible to be with...and the easiest to be with...at once. One will find great reward in hanging with Him. Past the place of putting on rabbit shoes.
A thing will be found for just "staying", not being right, not having anything to offer to add...just...staying.

Yeah...Jesus set the bar (to some it will appear offensively so) real low.
He tells his disciples

You are they who have continued with me in my trials.

I ain't Jesus. If you don't expect much from me...you just may discover a rich reward from Him. And I too, will seek to lay no burden upon you. You be you. I got no power there, anyway. And thanks be to God for those who make this so very plain to me.

This doesn't seem like the place to assert Jesus is real and then talk about all the great things he does in your life. This sub forum, by its title, is a place to discuss the veracity of Jesus as a supernatural being. That's what I always thought. Isn't coming to this subforum and proclaiming "How great thou art!" similar to going a couple floors up and proclaiming "God is dead!"? I suppose its allowable to go into the deer hunting room and talk about walleye fishing, but I imagine at some point the thread would be moved to the correct forum.

I think one can still have an aplologetic discussion without being able to use alchemy or equation or lug wrench. It can be a discussion about ideas or psyche or concepts. It does move along better if its a discussion rather than a sermon or testimony, I think.

 

[ambush80]

Agreed for the most part. The "look through the eyes of those back in the Bible times and how things looked to and were described by them and use common sense" part of your statement is the key to having a legitimate discussion about it. Anyone who fails to apply that, and repeats obvious scientific impossibilities as literal fact because they were described that way by people long ago who didn't understand them, is not helping their case. They just look gullible and unwilling to use their brain that God gave them. If you are willing to admit that the Bible has flaws in it from the time and circumstances of its writing, and is not necessarily all literal, then I can discuss it with you, but if you are a literalist, it's not so easy.

If you were a man in 2,000 BC, you might be pardoned for believing that a man could be swallowed by a whale and live three days and nights; or, not knowing about other continents or anywhere really outside of your own vicinity, believing that a man could round up every species of animal on the earth and stuff them into a boat 450 feet long, etc. If you still believe those things to be possible now, there is a flaw in your logic somewhere.

I'll play a bit of Jesus' advocate and posit that "The Lord of the Universe can fit all the animals on a boat and keep them fed indefinitely". So there's a logic to it.

In Multiverse theory, don't they postulate that all things conceivable exist in some universe or do I misunderstand the theory? Regardless, that doesn't speak to what has happened historically in OUR Universe; this one, where rocks fall down and dead things stay dead.

 

[Heathern]

I imagine if an A/A or A went trolling in one of the religous subforums on here, then the thread would have turned out even worse, even more quickly, with the double standards of (can't call out mo...mod...moder.....) practiced here, lest you insult those with god complexes.

The "waaaaAAAAAAA waaaaaAAAAAA waaaaaAAAAAAA - we're being persecuted" only works one way in these parts.

 

[ambush80]

I imagine if an A/A or A went trolling in one of the religous subforums on here, then the thread would have turned out even worse, even more quickly, with the double standards of (can't call out mo...mod...moder.....) practiced here, lest you insult those with god complexes.

The "waaaaAAAAAAA waaaaaAAAAAA waaaaaAAAAAAA - we're being persecuted" only works one way in these parts.

This is a unique sub forum. Being objective, dispassionate, rational are guiding principles around here. It's probably the only place where one could criticize the looks of someone's mother, wife, or daughter and not get into an argument. At least I hope so.

 

[WaltL1]

I can’t disagree except a rock is something we can see where it lands. And it’s something we can do and not read about.

Faith is unseen. Remove all bible stories and it really doesn’t affect our faith. It isn’t in a talking snake or any such stories.

Remember, look through the eyes of those 6,000 years ago at how things looked and were described by them and use common sense. I wonder what the differences are between now and then of the sound a sea shell makes.

I’ve never seen a talking snake and probably would be the first one to shoot it and the last one to tell anyone it talked.

As far as what non believers think about the sanity or questioning believers intelligence, to each his own. That’s always been, always will be.

I think where the line is drawn is when non believers ask for evidence without “regurgitated scripture”, yet regurgitated scripture is exactly where non believers go after claiming certain things.

It’s true that anyone can take a scripture and make it say or mean whatever they want, but when you use the entire Bible, it’s a different outcome and when you don’t, it reveals a lack of understanding of the Bible.

Further, when thousands of denominations and “Christians” tell non believers thats not what that means”.........it does question why is it just non believers and some radical Muslims that think scripture commands to rape and kill?

Other than that, I agree, some people, including Christians fail to exercise common sense.

Faith is unseen. Remove all bible stories and it really doesn’t affect our faith. It isn’t in a talking snake or any such stories.

100% just my opinion -
If the risk/reward system were removed from the whole scenario - no heaven, no he11, no suffering, no seeing Aunt Jenny again in paradise...…..
there would be a massive departure from Christianity in just a few generations.
I think believing, just for the sake of believing, with nothing to gain or lose, would be far less attractive to a whole slew of people.

 

[ky55]

100% just my opinion -
If the risk/reward system were removed from the whole scenario - no heaven, no he11, no suffering, no seeing Aunt Jenny again in paradise...…..
there would be a massive departure from Christianity in just a few generations.

Yep, and if you could take away the indoctrination of small children as a recruitment tool the departure would be even more massive.

*

 

[ambush80]

Yep, and if you could take away the indoctrination of small children as a recruitment tool the departure would be even more massive.

*

Ive read a couple of books lately that talk about Tribalism. Mostly about how it divides people and causes conflict but also how it's useful to form and cohere groups that work together for common interests. Sports teams are tribes, Political parties are tribes , and religions are like super tribes.

In my thread After God I was hoping to see if our instinct to be tribal could be satisfied by a secular institution and what that might look like.

 

[Spotlite]

100% just my opinion -
If the risk/reward system were removed from the whole scenario - no heaven, no he11, no suffering, no seeing Aunt Jenny again in paradise...…..
there would be a massive departure from Christianity in just a few generations.
I think believing, just for the sake of believing, with nothing to gain or lose, would be far less attractive to a whole slew of people.

I can agree!

There is in fact many that “escape” the bad using religion.

I have no respect for those folks. I’d rather a man be straight up and say I’m taking my chances, or simply just don’t want it instead “just in case”.

One reason I have issues with preachers that proselytize at funerals.

 

[Spotlite]

Yep, and if you could take away the indoctrination of small children as a recruitment tool the departure would be even more massive.

*

Not all indoctrinate. Just like sine non believers that allow their kids the opportunity to go to church, believers don’t force theirs. If a person can’t make uo their own minds ti be religious or not, they’re brainwashed.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

All of his threads are gone. Apparently we weren't as receptive as the folks in his revival.

I tried to tell him that he, in all probability, wasn't going to change anyone's mind here. I understand his frustration and disappointment. Believing people are going to perish and not being able to get thru to them can be very disheartening. He has, without a doubt, very good intentions, and is probably a class act. He just needs to understand that it's not a personal failure if people don't respond. Also, I don't think he had a very accurate concept that A/As are individuals. Each has his/her own reason for believing the way they believe. In fact I think in this day and age we ALL tend to hear one descriptive adjective about someone, and we put them into a preconceived mold or stereotype which in no way comes close to recognizing who they are. What one gathers from the media and church isn't an accurate picture of A/As , only a stereotype or mold. Anyway, wish him the best.

 

[j_seph]

Yep, and if you could take away the indoctrination of small children as a recruitment tool the departure would be even more massive.

*

How do you explain the multitudes that are saved who are not children, who were never really bad people, that are in their right mind and not on medication for mental illnesses, oh and had never been much on going to church?

 

[NCHillbilly]

Not all indoctrinate. Just like sine non believers that allow their kids the opportunity to go to church, believers don’t force theirs. If a person can’t make uo their own minds ti be religious or not, they’re brainwashed.

I had no choice at all growing up. If the church door was open, I was in church. Sunday mornings (including Sunday school, not just the sermon,) Sunday nights, Wednesday nights, revivals, bible school, prayer meetings, singings, whatever. The alternative was a whipping and then you went anyway.

 

[Spotlite]

I had no choice at all growing up. If the church door was open, I was in church. Sunday mornings (including Sunday school, not just the sermon,) Sunday nights, Wednesday nights, revivals, bible school, prayer meetings, singings, whatever. The alternative was a whipping and then you went anyway.

I was taught to go to church, family reunions, etc., but not forced to accept, like anything or anyone. If it didn’t come from your heart, you’re just going through the motions and spinning your wheels.

Staying out of church, school, hunting club meetings and even now work, meant you needed a legitimate reason. If you’re a part of something, be committed to it.

But indoctrination means to teach a person what and how they should believe. My going to church at a young age is not why I’m there today.

 

[j_seph]

I had no choice at all growing up. If the church door was open, I was in church. Sunday mornings (including Sunday school, not just the sermon,) Sunday nights, Wednesday nights, revivals, bible school, prayer meetings, singings, whatever. The alternative was a whipping and then you went anyway.

Sounds like you had awesome upbringing and a drug problem (you were drug to church) Shame you didn't get the addiction.

 

[ambush80]

I was taught to go to church, family reunions, etc., but not forced to accept, like anything or anyone. If it didn’t come from your heart, you’re just going through the motions and spinning your wheels.

Staying out of church, school, hunting club meetings and even now work, meant you needed a legitimate reason. If you’re a part of something, be committed to it.

But indoctrination means to teach a person what and how they should believe. My going to church at a young age is not why I’m there today.

If you had gone to Muslim or Jewish church all your childhood, where do you think you would be today?

 

[j_seph]

I was taught to go to church, family reunions, etc., but not forced to accept, like anything or anyone. If it didn’t come from your heart, you’re just going through the motions and spinning your wheels.

Staying out of church, school, hunting club meetings and even now work, meant you needed a legitimate reason. If you’re a part of something, be committed to it.

But indoctrination means to teach a person what and how they should believe. My going to church at a young age is not why I’m there today.

Same for me, I went to the occasional VBS as a kid, maybe once best I can remember. Then with a Wed night group ever so often if they came and picked me up. My parents did not go to church and rest of my family lived 5 hours away. Then as I got old enough to drive, sadly I would go to Wed youth service sometimes for the girls. Then a girl got me into church with her on Sunday mornings mostly and then it was just to see her and be with her. I got conviction back then but would not move and accept it. We broke up later on and I again would go on a Wed night somewhere just to be with friends and the girls. At 19 best friend and I went on a date with couple girls to church one Sunday night. That night I knew I had better accept him. Cannot explain much of it other than I knew I needed Jesus as my savior. I then got out of his tracks and quit living for him and following him until about 4 years ago. I got some major conviction going on and seen where he had been there for me even though I ignored him he had always been with me since 19 years old. I re-dedicated my life, and was amazed at how much happier I became, how much better my life became. Yeah I was having some fun before then, having a blast to be exact. But no way in the last 4 years would I go back to that for anything.

 

[WaltL1]

How do you explain the multitudes that are saved who are not children, who were never really bad people, that are in their right mind and not on medication for mental illnesses, oh and had never been much on going to church?

There is no question that perfectly sane adults turn to God without having been indoctrinated as children.
There is no question that indoctrinating children is a successful "recruitment program".

 

[Spotlite]

If you had gone to Muslim or Jewish church all your childhood, where do you think you would be today?

Atheist or Agnostic ??

J/K - indoctrination doesn’t work the way it’s being perceived here, every parent has a responsibility to teach their young the principles that they consider to be valuable. What others think, approve or disapprove about those principles is irrelevant.

Brainwashing sounds like the argument you intend to make?

Indoctrination the way it’s intended (teach) actually works if you compare NCHillbilly and myself.

Obviously, if brainwashing was involved, that concept failed NCHillbilly, so most likely, as much as some want to argue that, it ain’t happening.

Although brainwashing happens, it’s not isolated to just churches. Plenty of youth right now being brainwashed to hate the other race.