mtnwoman
Senior Member
Most of the new covenant. Not all but some...the 10 commandments is still in effect in my opinion.
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Women in Islam & Judaeo-Christian religions
- Thread starter Artfuldodger
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Most of the new covenant. Not all but some...the 10 commandments is still in effect in my opinion.
Denton
Senior Member
What separates the 10 commandments from the rules that artful posted?
mtnwoman
Senior Member
I have some muslim idiots in my family, so that makes us even....don't it? Your token Christian, my token muslim....not only is she an alcoholic, she's a cocain addict and steals from everyone she can. Should I judge her and not let her come to my house to take what she will, or should I just be a Christian idiot, who lets crack addicts in to steal. Well really I won't...she took my $400 paycheck out of my purse at the hospital while my brother was dying in cicu.....so I guess you and I are even when it comes to being 'prejudice' for no reason at all, eh? Should I judge all muslims by that.....of course not....yet you judge all of us Christians on here, no mercy or grace for our downfalls, just out and out judgemental behaviour on your part all the time....Lord have mercy on your spirit of discernment and your total hatefulness towards any Christian.
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mtnwoman
Senior Member
IMHO, those 'judicial laws' were for Israel as a nation. Those laws have been put aside, at least temporarily. In my opinion the 10 commandments are still in effect, I can't find one that 'any' moral person shouldn't abide by, Christian or not. The scripture I find is that Jesus fulfilled the law because the Jews nor us who are grafted in can follow those laws, He died on the cross to take that punishment for us 'all'.
Christ fulfilled all the prophesy in the OT, and not to abolish the law of Moses and/or the 10 commandments but to fulfill it, 'make it so'.
The NT tells us that gentiles are not unclean, nor is pork, and that God is no respecter of persons, male or female, so we can sit together in church, etc. Yet God's 'chosen' were given laws for obedience sake. Jesus is the new convenant between ALL men because the Jews did not believe He was our Saviour....thank you God for giving us ALL a chance to come into the kingdom.
For whosoever believes in Christ will be saved, thank you again God for your mercy and grace to all of us, not only your 'chosen people' but for ALL. The practices of the Jews, even today have not changed, it's God grace on everyone that was extended to the rest of us who are not Jews but were/are not meant for us as gentiles. I could go on and on...but God didn't change, that was/is His plan for salvation....Jesus Christ.
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blood on the ground
Cross threading is better than two lock washers.
Would this be a bad time to ask for an amen?
Denton
Senior Member
But what scripture says the OT laws have been temporarily suspended?
So Christ fulfilled the prophesies so that the OT would be applicable to gentiles as well, ok. Where in the NT does it say that OT laws don't apply? Does it get specific about gentiles and pork?
And aside from the first 4 commandments, I agree, they are good morality guides that all religions tend to profess. Holding them apart from the other OT rules just because we agree with them and not about pork is fine, we just have to recognize that that is what we are doing.
StriperAddict
Senior Member
As a means for IMPUTED righteousness the entirety of the law was nailed to the cross along with the body of the One who took it all on and fulfilled it before the Father.
Measuring life by its means (law) will provoke sin awareness, and grace will be of no effect.
Being free from the law a believer is a prisoner of the righteousness of God in Christ in his "inner man", what the scriptures call the new creation. This tends to flip out the religious legalists, who pound the stake of the law into the hearts of their hearers, and trample the Son of God. Call me blinded by grace but, IMO, it's all there in scripture. Scripture is clear that when the commandment 'comes', sin REVIVES and death occurs.
Thanks be to God for the body of the Holy One, to deliver us from the trap of showy, fleshly performed religious works.
I'd rather live by the power of (His) indestructable life (faith, grace) than any foolish command-based liturgy.
That's a wrap for me on this, unless Chapter/verse might be handy with some stuff here.
Measuring life by its means (law) will provoke sin awareness, and grace will be of no effect.
Being free from the law a believer is a prisoner of the righteousness of God in Christ in his "inner man", what the scriptures call the new creation. This tends to flip out the religious legalists, who pound the stake of the law into the hearts of their hearers, and trample the Son of God. Call me blinded by grace but, IMO, it's all there in scripture. Scripture is clear that when the commandment 'comes', sin REVIVES and death occurs.
Thanks be to God for the body of the Holy One, to deliver us from the trap of showy, fleshly performed religious works.
I'd rather live by the power of (His) indestructable life (faith, grace) than any foolish command-based liturgy.
That's a wrap for me on this, unless Chapter/verse might be handy with some stuff here.
mtnwoman
Senior Member
Acts 10:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Romans 11:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
Romans 8:1-3
King James Version (KJV)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
So you only believe in the first 4? Alrighty then...here they are
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
mtnwoman
Senior Member
Amen!
Denton
Senior Member
AND BEHOLD, THE POWER OF BACON in our bias towards this passage!!! So here he may have removed all the dietary rules that were placed on the Jews in Leviticus, or so says anyone who loves bacon. Yet line 15 still leaves room for vagueness. It just says don't call common what god has cleansed. It doesn't say that god cleansed pork, all it says is to not call common what god has already cleansed, meaning that Peter's distinction, "i have not eaten anything that is common or unclean" is wrong, there are only unclean and clean in the eyes of the lord, not unclean, clean, common, or noble. Nothing here says he cleansed bacon. So lets look at the broader passage, in the vision, Peter saw, "all manner of four footed creatures, reptiles, and birds". Beef was already available for him to eat, same as many other 4 footed creatures. Reptiles were new, but chicken and birds were not. The passage is STILL too vague so anyone could be right you or jews who keep kosher.
Ok, so this passage confused me with its diction, but here goes, 6 is setting up the conundrum, Deeds alone without the will to act for god, are just deeds so why do them? And if you already have the will of god, then what do we care for deeds?
7 has the answer, Israel did not obtain it (I assume he was seeking for perfection/holiness/good/a sinless life?), the choice to seek it meant that he did obtain it (in the eyes of god?), and the rest were blinded (you're going to have to explain that one to me, blinded to what?)
So if just by attempting to obtain "it" israel accomplished it, well that's nice, so the attempt is what counts, kind of a combination of grace and work.
BUT, the New American Standard Bible says something different,
7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”
this is completely different!!! Now it is entirely by grace, and work has nothing to do with it. "those who were chosen got it" while the rest were "hardened" and blinded, to this very day. Well dang, now the attempt isn't even necessary because its only who gets chosen.
The common english bible is the same,
7 So what? Israel didn’t find what it was looking for. Those who were chosen found it, but the others were resistant. 8 As it is written, God gave them a dull spirit, so that their eyes would not see and their ears not hear, right up until the present day.[a]
the New English Translation also has this "chosen" aspect to it,
6 And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear,
to this very day.”
So now I see, the laws don't matter, not even the attempt matters, all that matters is if you are chosen and if you are not, then you are worse than just left out, you are actually hardened against being able to change your mind!
I've heard this one before by people who break the law here on earth and are fine with that since they will still go to heaven. It STILL does not take back the laws the jews follow because those can also be considered the law of the spirit of life, not laws of sin and death since they too are also in the bible. This is more a passage about not following laws on earth that contradict with your faith and say nothing about the old testament laws as those laws have not been (correct me please) or ever were referred to as "laws of sin and death".
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.' [/QUOTE]
Please go back to my post and reread it. I said the exact opposite. that the first 4 commandments are not moral rules at all but simply to pacify a jealous god. They are useless except to ensure that no other god, namely Ba'al, was not worshiped ESPECIALLY since at the time, the jewish god was competing with a lot of other religions, Ba'al, the romans, even golden calves, etc. All of the other religions say the same things as the last 5 commandments, don't steal, lie, cheat, kill, covet. This was nothing special and cave men living in family groups knew these rules as the best way to live harmoniously with each other way before the jews.
Honoring your father and mother, eh, yeah, the establishment always wants external justification to be right, always. I love my parents, but I knew a lot of other parents who shouldn't be honored.
The first 4 commandments are useless in teaching morality. The others are universal and not special to christianity at all.
Denton
Senior Member
I think this is very healthy and a great way to live. Please don't change. Rules, I don't need your stinkin rules, I will live as moral and christlike a life as I can guided by his example. Period.
I wish more people lived like you.
You have to admit though, this is a very liberal understanding and dissolves any morality argument you have down to, "I, guided by the holy spirit, don't think it is moral" as you are choosing which morality laws to give more merit to. Like working on the sabbath, or gay marriage, or eating pork, etc. As long as it is you deciding, guided by whatever you wish. I'm glad you take personal responsibility for your beliefs.
mtnwoman
Senior Member
Were those exposed hands serving food, or taking money at the checkout....LOL
mtnwoman
Senior Member
If you are free in Christ, you are free indeed!
mtnwoman
Senior Member
Well no kiddin'.
My parents were righteous, so that commandment was made for people like me....not for everyone.
Same thing as being submissive to a cocaine dealing husband. God didn't only give us a heart to obey Him, He gave us a brain to rightly divide the Word.
mtnwoman
Senior Member
Actually God was speaking of the gentiles, once known as the 'unclean'. Saying to go sup with the gentiles and what they eat which has been cleansed....kinda like double My pleasure in them that do believe. They eat pork, they do this or that (they as in gentiles)....they are no longer unclean, they don't obey the laws of Lev, but they do believe/accept Christ, they and what they do has been cleansed...(gentiles)
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Denton
Senior Member
So you can pick which parts of the bible apply to you?
Denton
Senior Member
I still don't think this act removes the dietary restrictions with any certainty. The vision Peter gets is of many four footed creatures but it does not specifically say that all four footed creatures are ok to eat. We can assume that some of what Peter saw was previously not allowed because he argues with God that God must be wrong because Peter had never eaten anything which was considered unclean. But again, there is that lack of certainty because the words don't expressly remove all dietary restrictions. If acts 10-12 had said, "Wherein every manner of beasts" then yes, then any beast could be eaten. But it only says "Wherein all manner of beasts" and we cannot know which beasts he was shown to eat.
Small distinctions like this define denominations so I'm not above making them even though I like your understanding of this passage.
The rest of the passage is Peter taking some very liberal assumptions with God's vision to him. Nowhere did it say he could mingle with gentiles, only that "What God hath cleansed, call not common" in relation to the vision of animals peter saw, not of anything else and especially not of breaking new ground with gentiles.
Peter could have been smited right there for mixing it up with gentiles but I think he got away with it because he brought the holy spirit (and laid the groundwork) for the church to become as large as it has by allowing gentiles into christianity. Or he could have been led to do it by god but the story here doesn't say at all. Nowhere does any vision tell him to do this, he just went with it. God probably owes Peter for making this call on his own.
Also, nowhere in this passage does it say that Peter broke with his previous dietary laws. Nowhere does he eat pork or anything else. Nor is "keeping company" a euphemism for eating food it's just to spend time together. I wish this passage was more specific. A common ailment of the Bible.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
Acts 15 is very specific.
Denton
Senior Member
Very helpful. Why do you say it's specific?
centerpin fan
Senior Member
Did you read it?
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