Does this apply to Christians?

[hummerpoo]

I'm sorry Art. I tried really hard to understand how you got to where you are on this, and thought I had a degree of success. Having read less than half of your responses, I now understand less of your thinking than when I started.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'm sorry Art. I tried really hard to understand how you got to where you are on this, and thought I had a degree of success. Having read less than half of your responses, I now understand less of your thinking than when I started.

I would love to hear your take on the Ezekiel passage and Romans 11.

 

[Artfuldodger]

How does the Old Testament passages on land restoration and restoring ancient ruins tie in to something other than national Israel? Land that their Fathers possessed?
Assembly of the banished ones of Israel. The gathering of the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
God drove them out and will bring them back? Back to the land of their forefathers.

Zechariah 8:7-8
"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.'

That's the thing I don't understand why others can't see it. It's bring them back. Back where they came. Back to Jerusalem.

I don't see why this can't co-exist with the rest of the elect existing with God as our God as well. Just because God will bring them back, restore their land, and be their God and them His people doesn't take away from that same God being our God and we his people.

Why can't the two exist? Why must we try to make one the other. One changing to the other, or one never existing. That's the one I really don't understand, that national Israel never was God's people.

That Israel was just randomly chosen like Mary was randomly chosen as vessels for the passage of God's Son.

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 Corinthians 10:32
Don't give offense to Jews or Gentiles or the church of God.

This from Paul who said there is neither Jew nor Gentile. In this verse Paul distinguishes three different groups.
Even in the Old Testament there was a covenant that distinguished Jews from Gentiles. The Church may have been in Word but came into the world later.
Again, I didn't choose Israel or set them up to be something different, God did. As mystifying as I think that plan is, it's God's plan. Why did he choose Israel instead of Kenya or the ancient Mayan civilization?

I have no idea why he even chose a particular nation if that nation was never to be his true chosen group. Again, his plan, not mine.

As a result, there are now three divisions of mankind: Jews, Gentiles and the church. We also still have males and females.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

The division was real.

13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

The fix was real.

The mystery or secret revealed to Paul from God was also real. “from the beginning of the world… hid in God”, that is, the fellowship of the mystery. Paul calls this revelation the “mystery of Christ”, the “mystery among the Gentiles”, and the “dispensation of the grace of God”.

God knew and it was in Word from the beginning. It was placed in time later and the revelation revealed it's timing.

It's all a part of the mystery or secret revealed to Paul. The scattering, the gathering back to the home of their ancestors. The hardening. The inclusion of the Gentiles through grafting who were once strangers to the promises of the Commonwealth of Israel.
It's all there in Paul's revelation.

Wow that is really a hard pill to swallow. Paul being that special. His strange revelation concerning Gentiles. Coming out with all of that mysterious revelation or secret. Had me believing he was a fake for a few months years ago.

To think, this revelation from Paul who said there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Art,

Having read, reread, and re-reread all that you have posted in this thread, I have a question — In your insistance on national Isreal are you saying that, in spite of God's revelation of the "tares in the wheat", and that the tares are to be left in the wheat until harvest, we should forget that there are tares in the wheat when we read about Isreal?

In that parable, do you see the field as the world or the Church?

 

[hummerpoo]

I would love to hear your take on the Ezekiel passage and Romans 11.

This being, I know the second, and I believe the third, time that you have, shall we say … been unimpressed; I don't see why you would want to here again. For my part, I will pass.

 

[hummerpoo]

In that parable, do you see the field as the world or the Church?

I don't disagree with Christ.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I don't disagree with Christ.

On this we agree as well as election of His people and Him being our God. We just see differently on the co-existence of His people being distinguished as Jews and Gentiles and that he is their God and our God.
I, unlike you can see both sides. I can't deny what I believe. Even though I can see the other belief.
You on the other hand deny that you can't even see it, the other belief. It would be different if you said that you understand the belief concept of national Israel but don't believe it. I would be OK with that. But to deny that you don't understand it or are even unwilling to try is where my problem exist.
You have also heard my belief on this concept twice or maybe three times and still seek questions from me on certain aspects of my belief in which I unselfishly respond.
Yet when I ask the same of you, you either don't understand the concept of my belief or are willing to further explain yours.

You would think that maybe a heart felt response from you may show another reader another way to the truth and light. It does take the Holy Spirit but it could be the Spirit working through you to show this enlightenment.
That is if you believe the Holy Spirit also uses man as well as divine intervention.
I believe he uses both. He can call someone from an isolated island or he can use men to call one from a neighboring Gentile nation next to Israel.
God can directly reveal to one that he is God or he can use the nation of Israel that he is God by removing all evil from Israel and make them prosper with no more famine. The neighboring nations will see what he has done and know that he is God.
Two different ways of election directly from God and indirectly through man.

Maybe that's the way God works. Paul needed divine intervention. Paul needed a direct calling from God. Then through Paul's revelation others were lead to see. Just as through Israel's restoration others will be lead to see. The other nations will know that God is God by His restoration of Israel.

Maybe one's effectual calling can be direct as with Paul or indirect through one such as Paul or through a nation such as Israel.

 

[gemcgrew]

I'm sorry Art. I tried really hard to understand how you got to where you are on this, and thought I had a degree of success. Having read less than half of your responses, I now understand less of your thinking than when I started.

Obfuscationism

 

[hummerpoo]

In that parable, do you see the field as the world or the Church?

I don't disagree with Christ.

On this we agree as well as election of His people and Him being our God. We just see differently on the co-existence of His people being distinguished as Jews and Gentiles and that he is their God and our God.
I, unlike you can see both sides. I can't deny what I believe. Even though I can see the other belief.
You on the other hand deny that you can't even see it, the other belief. It would be different if you said that you understand the belief concept of national Israel but don't believe it. I would be OK with that. But to deny that you don't understand it or are even unwilling to try is where my problem exist.
You have also heard my belief on this concept twice or maybe three times and still seek questions from me on certain aspects of my belief in which I unselfishly respond.
Yet when I ask the same of you, you either don't understand the concept of my belief or are willing to further explain yours.

You would think that maybe a heart felt response from you may show another reader another way to the truth and light. It does take the Holy Spirit but it could be the Spirit working through you to show this enlightenment.
That is if you believe the Holy Spirit also uses man as well as divine intervention.
I believe he uses both. He can call someone from an isolated island or he can use men to call one from a neighboring Gentile nation next to Israel.
God can directly reveal to one that he is God or he can use the nation of Israel that he is God by removing all evil from Israel and make them prosper with no more famine. The neighboring nations will see what he has done and know that he is God.
Two different ways of election directly from God and indirectly through man.

Maybe that's the way God works. Paul needed divine intervention. Paul needed a direct calling from God. Then through Paul's revelation others were lead to see. Just as through Israel's restoration others will be lead to see. The other nations will know that God is God by His restoration of Israel.

Maybe one's effectual calling can be direct as with Paul or indirect through one such as Paul or through a nation such as Israel.

When I said

I don't disagree with Christ.

I simply meant that I accept the plain words of scripture: "37 And He [Christ] said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the ______; and as for the good seed …"

The remainder of your post reflects a similar failure to observe what is plainly in view.

 

[hummerpoo]

Obfuscationism

Reflecting back a couple of years to paraphrase a man whose opinion I respect, "I fear much worse".

 

[gordon 2]

Spiritual Jews.

Romans 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So, I will leap here, were people able to be born again before Christianity? What is our difference with those "circumcised in their heart, in the spirit"? who preceded Christianity? Any?

 

[Israel]

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when he testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Obfuscationism

I admit, I'm not the best at explaining things. Read the Ezekiel passage and Romans 11 and tell me what it means. I'm sure I'll be able to understand what you mean. I may not agree with it but I'm pretty sure I'll be able to grasp the concept of your explanation.

 

[Artfuldodger]

When I said

I simply meant that I accept the plain words of scripture: "37 And He [Christ] said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the ______; and as for the good seed …"

The remainder of your post reflects a similar failure to observe what is plainly in view.

Christ said the field is the world. Now I see why you have trouble understanding things.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I think the reason I believe it to be a real earthly restoration of national Israel is the way "land" is used. Maybe if that wasn't in the promises so much then I could see it as spiritual or the Church. That and the use of "back" or "returning" to this land. The land of their forefathers. Then the way passages talk about the restoration of Israel. God will destroy their enemies. Nations will see the Jews in every land receive fame and praise. God will remove evil from Zion. Other nations will know God when they see what Israel has received.
The land, the crops, no more famine. Restoration.
The peoples of the earth will see this when God brings them home. He will restore their fortunes. Restore the splendor of Israel.
Restore the crops, plenty to eat.

Genesis 12:7
Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “I will give this land to your offspring.” So Abram built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Genesis 13:15
All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever.

Ezekiel 36:28
Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Zechariah 8:8
I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God."

 

[hummerpoo]

Christ said the field is the world. Now I see why you have trouble understanding things.

You can add to your list the meaning of your statement.

 

[Artfuldodger]

How does one see it as spiritual Israel or the Church by reading the Old Testament?
How did they all miss the revelation until Paul revealed. People say it's in the Old Testament. Then what was revealed to Paul?

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

How would one have known the mystery or secret just by reading the Old Testament? If that was even possible then what was Paul's revelation?

 

[Artfuldodger]

You can add to your list the meaning of your statement.

It was in reference to you not understanding how God could remove tares from national Israel the way he can from the world.
The parable says to leave them until after the harvest.

We now have tares living among the wheat in the world(kosmos). They will be living in the world until after the harvest. Matters not if the tares are living down the street, on a South Pacific Island, in the Church, or in national Israel.
None of them will be removed until after the Harvest. I would assume the harvest will come after the restoration of national Israel.

Again, I'm not saying you have to believe all this but you deny that it's a real belief. That's another problem I have with you.

You have over the years denied that my beliefs are real. I can't deny what I believe. I'm not asking you to believe what I believe. Just give me the respect I give you about your beliefs.

 

[Artfuldodger]

You can add to your list the meaning of your statement.

I wanted to add that you are a good and patient teacher. I will admit that you are well read in scripture. You have a firm foothold in the Reformed faith. I've learned a lot from you.

It's just that it's like at some point in our discussions you will suddenly deny that my beliefs are real or way out in left field. Like this discussion, right in the middle of it suddenly you can't comprehend my belief any longer. Yet it's a pretty mainstream held belief on the restoration of national Israel.

In the discussion on the Trinity, you accuse me of a always trying to divide God, yet I'm not even Trinitarian. I see more of a Oneness in God within the Oneness belief.
I just felt like that accusation was not needed within that discussion.

Most of our discussions will be going along pretty good then I'll interject something. A feeling or a belief or perhaps a question and then you'll be done with the discussion.
It's like "I'll just take my ball and go home." I feel like I'm left high and dry.