Salvation or Probation

[Spineyman]

I don’t really like using labels such as “free will” myself, but that’s the popular term here.

I agree on being drawn by the spirit. Do you think a man can resist that? I do, (for whoever will) and that’s what I call “free will” and I understand that label may not be the correct terminology.

Does this sound like free will to you, and this is way back in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:24-26

…24
For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all the countries, and I will bring you back into your own land.
25
I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols.
26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.…

The moral of the story is, it is not what you or I do or don't do, but rather what He, the Son of the lliving God has already done!

 

[Spineyman]

Here is Jesus' priestly prayer for His own in John 17.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

So simple facts are if you are His then you are not walking away... Period!

 

[Spineyman]

So we can go before him and have all sin removed without taking a sacrifice to a Priest.

But what if we don’t go before him, is there any forgiveness; past present and future?

I’m with you, just curious as how the following scriptures are viewed and taught by those that believe that it’s impossible to sin after becoming a child of God.

1 John 2:1

2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Every single person on earth will continue to sin until his or her last breath. Now with that said as you grow more in grace then you will be more humble and repentant also. That is what drives us to our knees and if you aren't a sinner then you need no savior.

 

[Spineyman]

Ok, I agree mostly. Yes I think a man can resist. I’ve seen many walk and “run”.

“Almost thou persuaded me”.

Don’t take this as just disagreeing with you, I’m just saying I believe a man can turn away. Otherwise, whosoever will is not really whosoever will. It would be whosoever I called. Just my opinion though.

How can a man resist, do you believe the scripture that says that you were dead in your tresspasses and sins. I don't know about you, but I have never seen a dead man do anything good or bad. Except those voting democratic here lately! Sorry for the jab, I couldn't resist.

 

[Spotlite]

How can a man resist, do you believe the scripture that says that you were dead in your tresspasses and sins. I don't know about you, but I have never seen a dead man do anything good or bad. Except those voting democratic here lately! Sorry for the jab, I couldn't resist.

Lol ok on the jab.

 

[Spotlite]

Here is Jesus' priestly prayer for His own in John 17.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

So simple facts are if you are His then you are not walking away... Period!

This is why I asked for an explanation of this warning for returning back AFTER.

2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. …

 

[Artfuldodger]

What about all the verses of the good inheriting the Kingdom and the evil not?
Even with all the verses about Jesus imputing our righteousness, and the washing, we still have a lot of scripture about good vs evil as pertaining to entering Heaven or the Kingdom.
Jesus separating the Sheep and the goats as an example. The goats didn't help or feed the people(Jesus), they didn't visit the sick(Jesus). They didn't clothe the people(Jesus)

This seems to say that maybe the evil will roast and the good will have eternal life. The good, the people who help, feed, clothe, shelter, and provide for the people(Jesus).

 

[Artfuldodger]

There is still a lot of New Testament scripture about good people being saved vs evil people suffering eternal death. This is a bit different from the saved being sinners who still sin.

It's amost like it's two different bible stories. One being Jesus died for our sins and the other that we must repent from sinning and live a sin free life of goodness vs evil. Like we as humans must provide our own righteousness for salvation.
I can see why many folks see it as such when reading scripture.

James paints this picture;

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Even before James was Matthews;

Matthew 13:49
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous.

There is still some concept of the wicked vs righteous in relation to the saved vs the unsaved.

It's like two different concepts closely intertwined within scripture.

Is it the saved vs the unsaved or the wicked vs the righteous?

 

[Artfuldodger]

John 5:29
and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

Resurrection verses, some who have done "good" will be resurrected to eternal life. Those who have been "evil" will go to eternal death.

This is different from the "saved" going to eternal life and the "unsaved" going to eternal death.

It's like this goodness thing vs the evil thing is still a part of who gains eternal life. Regardless that none of us are good and that Jesus is the only one capable of imputing our righteousness.

We can't do it. We are all evil. So why are the verses still there? Why do they separate the good from the evil if it is the saved from the unsaved?

 

[StriperAddict]

Worth a watch.

Ephesians and Predestination
Many believe that the book of Ephesians tells the story of a God who has pre-selected certain people for salvation and left others with no hope.
Jamie called in to our radio program to ask about Ephesians and the true meaning of predestination.
In this short video clip, I address Jamie’s concerns and discuss predestination from a Jew-Gentile perspective.
If you’ve ever wondered how predestination can be understood in a simple and straightforward manner, this one is for you!

- From AFM

 

[Artfuldodger]

Worth a watch.

Ephesians and Predestination
Many believe that the book of Ephesians tells the story of a God who has pre-selected certain people for salvation and left others with no hope.
Jamie called in to our radio program to ask about Ephesians and the true meaning of predestination.
In this short video clip, I address Jamie’s concerns and discuss predestination from a Jew-Gentile perspective.
If you’ve ever wondered how predestination can be understood in a simple and straightforward manner, this one is for you!

- From AFM

According to Farley, the Jewish part of God's plan was predestined. Jesus coming through the lineage of Israel. Jesus being born a Jew and dying on the cross. That part was all predestined.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

The mystery revealed to Paul to spread the gospel to the Gentiles is the destiny of Ephesians. Then in a way salvation was to go to the Gentiles but only after the cross and/or resurrection.

God's plan was predestined but the Gentiles had to wait until He revealed it to Paul.

That's still a whole lot of predestiny.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I can see where one could read Ephesians as the mystery being predestined. The Gentiles being able to be grafted being the ones predestined for adoption as a whole.

That Paul was telling them their "call" to God was predestined.

But there was a time where they were without God and hope. Excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise.

That part would have to be predestined. God knowing that Israel would reject him and salvation going to the Gentiles. That mystery was predestined.
The plan from Adam to Jesus was predestined. Maybe some see everything in the Bible predestined "but" salvation.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Ephesians 1:9
God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.

I'm sure that was 100% predestined and known by God before the revelation.
We(Gentiles), as a group, were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him. The events that lead up to Jesus being born a Jew and the cross were predestined.

In order for God to have predestined all of this Bible story and the Good News, he used individuals such as Pharoah, Jesus, and Judas, the Jews and the Romans. He orchestrated the predestined events for Him to fulfill John 3:16.
He hardened Pharoah and the Jews except a Remnant which were elected by grace and not works.

All this when his original and only plan "A" was the, predestined mystery before all time, to bring salvation to the Gentiles. That He may make Israel jealous. That some of them will accept Jesus when they are no longer blinded by God. Right now they are still blinded.

God's predestined plan was to elect a Remnant and blind the rest of the Jews in order to fulfill his predestined planned mystery to Paul and the Gentiles.

Was the Remnant of the Jews not election for salvation by grace and not works? Were the others not sent to their grave with darkened eyes?

 

[Madman]

Romans 9:17
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Why in the world does God do this? They asked; "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"

I see no where that God has made anyone do anything. He raised Pharaoh up for this very purpose but it does not "I forced you to do this". I raised my children to be honest, hard working, members of society, but they could have chosen not to be.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I see no where that God has made anyone do anything. He raised Pharaoh up for this very purpose but it does not "I forced you to do this". I raised my children to be honest, hard working, members of society, but they could have chosen not to be.

If we stick with the passage, the very next verse says;
Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy , and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

Paul knew we would ask;
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us?
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

Paul said all this after he said that God raised Pharaoh up for His purpose. Why would Paul go to the trouble of saying we as man would question God doing this?

Then he goes on to say that God will have mercy on whom he has mercy and hardens who he wants to harden. The Potter has the right to make one lump of clay for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory.

Maybe since he uses some clay for dishonorable use, he gives them a chance for salvation too. This may be in reference to the hardening of the Jews to let the salvation go to the Gentiles per Romans 11.
Those who were strangers to the covenants of promise, without God and hope.
So even though God has hardened the Jews, they haven't stumbled so far as to fall.

 

[Artfuldodger]

He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy."

What did God actually do if it wasn't hardening Pharoah. Pharoah was just the example Paul was using in the passage. If we back up it's really about "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Pharoah was just given as an example of God's sovereign choice. Esau had not even been born yet.
Again Paul knew that as men we would ask;
Is God unjust?

Why did Paul think we'd ask that of God? Because God makes sovereign choices. Pharoah was just one example. Paul knew we would ask. Even though Paul explained it, even today people still ask. They can't see a loving God doing such.

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

[Spineyman]

This is why I asked for an explanation of this warning for returning back AFTER.

2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. …

What about all the verses of the good inheriting the Kingdom and the evil not?
Even with all the verses about Jesus imputing our righteousness, and the washing, we still have a lot of scripture about good vs evil as pertaining to entering Heaven or the Kingdom.
Jesus separating the Sheep and the goats as an example. The goats didn't help or feed the people(Jesus), they didn't visit the sick(Jesus). They didn't clothe the people(Jesus)

This seems to say that maybe the evil will roast and the good will have eternal life. The good, the people who help, feed, clothe, shelter, and provide for the people(Jesus).

It is the same about the parable of the wheat and tares. There are some who try to do all of this on their own, and they can't and they won't get into heaven either. It is not of work should any man boast. We can not add to or take a way from. Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling. We do not bring anything with us, we can't because our righteousness is nothing more than filthy rags. It takes a sinless savior, who died to shed His Blood for us so that we could become the righteousness in Christ Jesus. It is not what we do or don't do, but what He has already done on the cross. He then was resurrected and raised to newness of life.

 

[Artfuldodger]

It is the same about the parable of the wheat and tares. There are some who try to do all of this on their own, and they can't and they won't get into heaven either. It is not of work should any man boast. We can not add to or take a way from. Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling. We do not bring anything with us, we can't because our righteousness is nothing more than filthy rags. It takes a sinless savior, who died to shed His Blood for us so that we could become the righteousness in Christ Jesus. It is not what we do or don't do, but what He has already done on the cross. He then was resurrected and raised to newness of life.

I do believe as you do and thus why my question. If it's all about the saved vs the unsaved, why are there resurrection verses about the evil or righteous?

"those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

"there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

[Spineyman]

I do believe as you do and thus why my question. If it's all about the saved vs the unsaved, why are there resurrection verses about the evil or righteous?

"those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

"there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Matthew 7:21-23

21but he “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

There are countless people who are trying to do this on their own power, by their own works. It is very clear than not of works should any man boast, it is a free gift of God. Jesus did it all for us, not part, not some , not most, but ALL. It is not what we do but what He has already done!

 

[Artfuldodger]

Matthew 7:21-23

21but he “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

There are countless people who are trying to do this on their own power, by their own works. It is very clear than not of works should any man boast, it is a free gift of God. Jesus did it all for us, not part, not some , not most, but ALL. It is not what we do but what He has already done!

What are some examples of people doing the will of the Father? Better yet what are some examples of people not doing the will of the Father that would prevent them from entering the Kingdom?

I can see that these fake Christians were doing works thinking they could buy their way in. I know that it doesn't work that way.

Still though in verse 23 it says "depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

It's like even though it's "all" from God, we still have verses about people who practice lawlessness. Even though Christ died for the Law or our inability to keep it.

There will still be a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

"there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

"and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

I do believe in salvation from grace but at the same time how do I reconcile a resurrection of the righteous and the evil?

Does our salvation make us righteous? Perhaps it's the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Why not verses concerning a resurrection of the saved and a resurrection of the un-saved?

Maybe a resurrection of the (imputed from Christ righteousness) but those verses don't say that.