gemcgrew
Senior Member
Only a moron would accept Christ as his personal savior when he does not believe in Christ. Belief is an evidence of salvation and not the cause of salvation.
Welcome Guest!
God's Salvation plan?
- Thread starter Artfuldodger
- Start date
j_seph
Senior Member
so you re saying one can say say yeah I believe there is a God and a man named Jesus used to walk the earth then they are saved?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Maybe there is a difference in believing God and Jesus exist to a belief that there is a God who gave us his Son to die for our sins?
In one aspect you believe God and Jesus exist. In the other you believe and accept that, Jesus the Son, is your salvation from eternal death.
In one aspect you believe God and Jesus exist. In the other you believe and accept that, Jesus the Son, is your salvation from eternal death.
Madman
Senior Member
Christ built his church and taught it what to believe, if you stand against it so be it. Many have stood against Christ for centuries, many cults have been born because those men listened to the wrong spirits.
A man alone is in poor company.
Matthew 16:18
I'm teachable. If I'm in error, please show me through scripture where I've taken a wrong turn. But we must consider all scripture carefully.
Madman
Senior Member
Dec 12, 2018
#16
W
welderguy
Senior Member
gemcgrew said:
I have never heard it said quite this way. There is something there that is causing me to hesitate in agreeing completely, but I am compelled to fully consider it.
Thanks for that.
Can anyone or any thing really depart from a God that is everywhere present and nowhere absent?
But, I fully believe that a nature can be fully annihilated. Light banishes darkness.
Let's start with post #16
Are you saying that God will force himself upon someone by annihilating that person's desire to spend eternity apart from the beatific vision?
#16
W
welderguy
Senior Member
gemcgrew said:
I have never heard it said quite this way. There is something there that is causing me to hesitate in agreeing completely, but I am compelled to fully consider it.
Thanks for that.
Can anyone or any thing really depart from a God that is everywhere present and nowhere absent?
But, I fully believe that a nature can be fully annihilated. Light banishes darkness.
Let's start with post #16
Are you saying that God will force himself upon someone by annihilating that person's desire to spend eternity apart from the beatific vision?
I believe what you describe here is exactly what He is accomplishing through regeneration NOW for an elect chosen. These are His bride that He is preparing for His Son. I also believe that not everyone is elected to be the bride. I don't believe this excludes them from heaven, only from being the bride.
There is a number of people (144,000) spoken of in Revelation. It's a figurative number. I believe it represents this bride.
Last edited:
Madman
Senior Member
So the answer is "yes". God forces himself on certain people even if it is against their will.
There is nothing in Holy Scripture nor has the church believed in 2100 years of existence that God forces men to love him and desire him.
You would have to show me where you get that idea.
Last edited:
Madman
Senior Member
Why do you believe 144,000 represents the bride? why are only that number prepared for salvation? What about "God so loved the world....." or " God wishes no one should perish............, or "God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world to himself........."?
There is no Biblical evidence nor church teaching that points to double predestination, that belief is only 500 years old.
He draws us gently(no force needed). He quickens us from our dead spiritual state and puts a new heart within us. He takes the stoney heart and gives us a heart of flesh. Suddenly, our will is changed in the process. His love abounds in our hearts so that we are filled with love, not only for Him, but for others.Even for our enemies. I can give you texts supporting all this, but I'm pretty sure you know them as well as I do.
Israel
BANNED
Is not Jesus Christ the man in whom is plainly shown..."not my will, but thine be done?"
Does he need permission to show himself to any man? Do you...or I...need permission to be seen? LOL...God forbid! We may of all things contrariwise find ourselves seeking permission to be hid...instead! (which very much comes in consequence...of our own wanting to be seen)
Oh, how the once boastful rich man, once parading himself, comes to wish in the time of home invasion..."where can I hide? (O God, why didn't I keep my trap shut about all my riches?")
Making myself known has elevated me to worthy target status! I do indeed...deserve this. (if he is granted sobering grace) If not...he'll find out just how much he is able to "salvage". When the pilfering is done.
In this (Jesus Christ's) showing of himself as the man who submits to a will "not his own", the only man in whom a will not his own is found, that is the will of God (though His will was never tarnished with sin!)...does not his allowance of being seen of man also not bring with it the overwhelming knowing of that will in which he alone worked...the will of God?
What man could not, would not...find this will, at work against his own? Does God need man's permission to present His will? Need God make reason or apology to man, and his will, for showing His will?
In the beginning was the logos...
The man who would refuse incursion of "God's will" must take into account...it is only by the will of God he even exists to do so.
Does he need permission to show himself to any man? Do you...or I...need permission to be seen? LOL...God forbid! We may of all things contrariwise find ourselves seeking permission to be hid...instead! (which very much comes in consequence...of our own wanting to be seen)
Oh, how the once boastful rich man, once parading himself, comes to wish in the time of home invasion..."where can I hide? (O God, why didn't I keep my trap shut about all my riches?")
Making myself known has elevated me to worthy target status! I do indeed...deserve this. (if he is granted sobering grace) If not...he'll find out just how much he is able to "salvage". When the pilfering is done.
In this (Jesus Christ's) showing of himself as the man who submits to a will "not his own", the only man in whom a will not his own is found, that is the will of God (though His will was never tarnished with sin!)...does not his allowance of being seen of man also not bring with it the overwhelming knowing of that will in which he alone worked...the will of God?
What man could not, would not...find this will, at work against his own? Does God need man's permission to present His will? Need God make reason or apology to man, and his will, for showing His will?
In the beginning was the logos...
The man who would refuse incursion of "God's will" must take into account...it is only by the will of God he even exists to do so.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Is the "call" universal? If so what is Romans 11 telling us? A remnant elected by grace, the rest hardened until the full number of Gentiles come in, then all Israel will be saved.
Is that not God the Potter not forcing man a certain way to make his story happen the way he wants it too? Then back up to Romans 9, Jacob I loved but Esau I hated. I'm not saying he "forced" Jacob but I do see a lot of control on that individual.
Last edited:
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
So you see the elect as the bride? Some people see the Remnant of Israel as the elect. Maybe the Remnant as the bride or Jerusalem(Israel) as the bride or the Church as the bride.
What is the function of the elect other than becoming the bride? Do they have a special purpose within the physical world?
Even if the Remnant of Israel was the Elect, what was their function? Why did God reserve them for himself and harden the rest of Israel?
I believe they are all synonymous. The bride is a called out people, predestined to be conformed. They are for His glory. They are they that have the promises and favor of God in this life and the next. They are the Jacob(Israel) of this Earth.
gordon 2
Senior Member
( Just a thought. I hope that evangelicals for all their bible views in agreement and of disagreement get recognized positively when it counts the most. Or I sincerely hope that y'all are elect, in the narrow gate and all the dissenters which were your fathers get in too at the last trumpet and that their differing views which produced you, produced the opposite of being in vain, that indeed y'all are the elect...) Sincere, I hope.
gemcgrew
Senior Member
No. I didn't say that at all. I chose my words carefully and presented them in a particular way. I did this hoping to avoid nonsense.
I did not account for you though.
j_seph
Senior Member
So what is the purpose of everyone else if only a select few are gonna be selected?
gemcgrew
Senior Member
To shew his wrath, make his power known and to make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory. (See Romans 9)
Last edited:
j_seph
Senior Member
So if he has already selected the elite what purpose would he have to show his wrath? If they are already chosen then they are already going to do what he wants and be what he wants. No need to scare them into it.
j_seph
Senior Member
Similar threads
