A Very Dangerous Book

[welderguy]

Within what?

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you

Does the Holy Spirit exist inside you or within the realm of the Kingdom of Heaven. I find the premise of your question wrong. You seem to be saying the Kingdom either exists inside of you OR external to you. It misses the mark entirely. The Kingdom exists now in part known, and in part yet to be revealed and unknown. Here and now it’s a spiritual Kingdom composed of those WITHIN whom the Holy Spirit resides. When Christ comes back to reign as King over all, the fully glory of his kingdom will become manifest in all its fullness.

Now what does that have to do with this.

quote "So, apparently a person who claims to know the Lord, but who has a pattern of life of working iniquity, will not be admitted to heaven."quote

Can one have a pattern of life of iniquity and have the Holy Spirit living within them. Is iniquity a fruit of the Spirit?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

John MacArthur quotes:

quote "So, apparently a person who claims to know the Lord, but who has a pattern of life of working iniquity, will not be admitted to heaven."quote

He thinks it's all about entering into heaven. He missed it, like so many do.
It's about entering into the kingdom.[/QUOTE]

Ok. Sorry. I just went back and tried to make sense of this and I can’t. Can you explain to me the difference between the Kingdom and Heaven, because that is a distinction I have not heard made and I’m completely at a loss to understand it. Thanks.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you

I'm a little lost too, are you saying a man can sin in the Kingdom, which is here or within, but won't sin in Heaven? Heaven being the future.

Then Paul who gives us the sin list that keeps one out of the Kingdom is talking about something different than Heaven?

I can't say that I agree with that. I think the list was to show what would keep someone out of God's Kingdom, regardless of where it is, without the washing.

I thought Paul was just showing us what the washing did. I don't think he was showing us sins that would keep us out of the Kingdom vs a washing that lets us into Heaven.

 

[welderguy]

Does the Holy Spirit exist inside you or within the realm of the Kingdom of Heaven. I find the premise of your question wrong. You seem to be saying the Kingdom either exists inside of you OR external to you. It misses the mark entirely. The Kingdom exists now in part known, and in part yet to be revealed and unknown. Here and now it’s a spiritual Kingdom composed of those WITHIN whom the Holy Spirit resides. When Christ comes back to reign as King over all, the fully glory of his kingdom will become manifest in all its fullness.

Now what does that have to do with this.

quote "So, apparently a person who claims to know the Lord, but who has a pattern of life of working iniquity, will not be admitted to heaven."quote

Can one have a pattern of life of iniquity and have the Holy Spirit living within them. Is iniquity a fruit of the Spirit?

Go to 2 Peter 1 and see if it's possible for a person ,who was purged from his sins, to still be unfruitful.
Then, in the same chapter, see what Peter says about entering the kingdom.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

We’ll Gem, I just finished the book. Ready to talk about it whenever you are. Couple of things just from my personal viewpoint.

1) JM just “comes across” better in his book than he does on the radio. Just my personal opinion.

2) It’s the first book of his I’ve read and I don’t know if all his books are this well argued with scriptural backing for every single point, referenced, cross-referenced and annotated, but it was impressive. I would have been impressed even if I disagreed with him on every point. On that front it was exemplary, so much so I’m going to purchase Strange Fire. I disagreed with him after listening to his radio broadcast, and I’m intrigued if he has laid out a better case in the book with such extensive scriptural backing. If so, who knows? I like to think I’m open to the scriptural truth no matter where it leads.

3)He seems to have the moniker as a “Hard Calvinist/ Predeterminist/whatever. I didn’t find that to the extent I understand exactly what exactly that means. I really try to stay out of those debates. As far as where God’s sovereignty ends and man’s free will begins I simply believe man has enough free will to make him culpable for his sins. That’s all I need to know.

Anyway, fire away.

 

[welderguy]

Consider this text.

Matthew 23:13
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

It states that there is something that certain ones are "entering into"(see 2 Pet.1). But they are being influenced negativity against it.
You and I both know that our eternal life in heaven cannot be altered in any way by man. Agree?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Go to 2 Peter 1 and see if it's possible for a person ,who was purged from his sins, to still be unfruitful.
Then, in the same chapter, see what Peter says about entering the kingdom.

You know, instead of keeping me guessing, it would be a whole lot simpler to just come out and say what you mean/meant and we could go from there. My gift of misinterpretation knows no bounds, especially guessing at what point you may or may not be driving at through this musical chiars of scriptures you keep tossing out.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Ok. Sorry. I just went back and tried to make sense of this and I can’t. Can you explain to me the difference between the Kingdom and Heaven, because that is a distinction I have not heard made and I’m completely at a loss to understand it. Thanks.

Consider this text.

Matthew 23:13
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

It states that there is something that certain ones are "entering into"(see 2 Pet.1). But they are being influenced negativity against it.
You and I both know that our eternal life in heaven cannot be altered in any way by man. Agree?[/QUOTE]

Again, it would be nice if you laid out you point/points, or just summed them up. If you want to back it up with scripture, even better. No offense, but I don’t have the time or patience to keep playing Simon Says.

 

[welderguy]

You know, instead of keeping me guessing, it would be a whole lot simpler to just come out and say what you mean/meant and we could go from there. My gift of misinterpretation knows no bounds, especially guessing at what point you may or may not be driving at through this musical chiars of scriptures you keep tossing out.

Why do you suppose Jesus only intended for some to know the things of the kingdom, hense His teaching through parables?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Why do you suppose Jesus only intended for some to know the things of the kingdom, hense His teaching through parables?

Okeeee Dokeee then.

 

[welderguy]

Okeeee Dokeee then.

You seem, to me, to be one of these.

Matt.13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

 

[Madman]

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you

The kingdom of God is a spiritual reality present within the Christian believer and within the community of the church. "Within you" can also be translated "among you" or "in your midst".

 

[welderguy]

The kingdom of God is a spiritual reality present within the Christian believer and within the community of the church. "Within you" can also be translated "among you" or "in your midst".

I agree, but it's not something that comes to a believer through passiveness. It must be "pressed into" diligently, and through faith.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

You seem, to me, to be one of these.

Matt.13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Sorry, but I’m afraid this is going nowhere good. I’ll just abstain from replying to you. Best for all.

 

[welderguy]

Sorry, but I’m afraid this is going nowhere good. I’ll just abstain from replying to you. Best for all.

Thanks for sparing me your wrath. You're very kind and merciful for that.

 

[Artfuldodger]

You seem, to me, to be one of these.

Matt.13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Then one's eyes can be opened for salvation(eternal life/Heaven) but closed to the Kingdom?
What is your explanation of the seed which was sown?

It's sounds like you are trying to justify, one of the elect losing salvation scriptures, by saying that the Kingdom is different. Are you saying if I received the seed of knowledge about the Kingdom, the wicked one can snatch it but he can't snatch my salvation from eternal death which is something totally different?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I agree, but it's not something that comes to a believer through passiveness. It must be "pressed into" diligently, and through faith.

Then salvation is a free gift of grace but to be in the Kingdom requires works. Maybe?
You have to work to stay in the Kingdom. You can be lead out of the Kingdom. You can fall from the Kingdom.

But salvation? No. It's free and from grace. If it's in fact two different themes. Maybe the Kingdom is physical and the eternal life is spiritual. One is now and the other is later.

How we act in the one now doesn't remove us from the one we'll be in later. We can gain things or lose things in the Kingdom but not lose our place in the other one.

How does this explain our judgement between the two themes?

 

[hummerpoo]

We’ll Gem, I just finished the book. Ready to talk about it whenever you are. Couple of things just from my personal viewpoint.

1) JM just “comes across” better in his book than he does on the radio. Just my personal opinion.

2) It’s the first book of his I’ve read and I don’t know if all his books are this well argued with scriptural backing for every single point, referenced, cross-referenced and annotated, but it was impressive. I would have been impressed even if I disagreed with him on every point. On that front it was exemplary, so much so I’m going to purchase Strange Fire. I disagreed with him after listening to his radio broadcast, and I’m intrigued if he has laid out a better case in the book with such extensive scriptural backing. If so, who knows? I like to think I’m open to the scriptural truth no matter where it leads.

3)He seems to have the moniker as a “Hard Calvinist/ Predeterminist/whatever. I didn’t find that to the extent I understand exactly what exactly that means. I really try to stay out of those debates. As far as where God’s sovereignty ends and man’s free will begins I simply believe man has enough free will to make him culpable for his sins. That’s all I need to know.

Anyway, fire away.

I haven’t read MacArthur’s book, so I don’t want to interrupt, or sidetrack, your conversation; rather, to simply make a comment for future consideration.


On your point #3: I highly recommend that you make a note to read Augustine’s “A Treatise on Grace and Free Will” — not to be confused with “On Free Choice of the Will”, which was written many years earlier; and was written from a philosophical perspective rather than theological perspective; and is often quoted by those who oppose his theology (an error which is addressed in his “Reconsiderations, 1.9”). It is short book but must be read very carefully to make all of the connection of the argument. If the translation/publication that you read does not include them, get a copy of his letters #214 and #215 which relate to the occasion of writing the book. Personally, I see a strong relationship between Augustine’s position and Romans Ch. 1 (“without excuse”). You will like the exposition of scripture style he adopts for this book. I hope you find the book beneficial to your relationship with God.

 

[gemcgrew]

We’ll Gem, I just finished the book. Ready to talk about it whenever you are. Couple of things just from my personal viewpoint.

1) JM just “comes across” better in his book than he does on the radio. Just my personal opinion.

2) It’s the first book of his I’ve read and I don’t know if all his books are this well argued with scriptural backing for every single point, referenced, cross-referenced and annotated, but it was impressive. I would have been impressed even if I disagreed with him on every point. On that front it was exemplary, so much so I’m going to purchase Strange Fire. I disagreed with him after listening to his radio broadcast, and I’m intrigued if he has laid out a better case in the book with such extensive scriptural backing. If so, who knows? I like to think I’m open to the scriptural truth no matter where it leads.

3)He seems to have the moniker as a “Hard Calvinist/ Predeterminist/whatever. I didn’t find that to the extent I understand exactly what exactly that means. I really try to stay out of those debates. As far as where God’s sovereignty ends and man’s free will begins I simply believe man has enough free will to make him culpable for his sins. That’s all I need to know.

Anyway, fire away.

I have not yet finished. I am thoroughly enjoying it. I intended to read through it quickly, but providence would have none of that.
A young man approached me at work the other day and asked if he could speak with me privately. He was in a state of panic and very distraught. He was being shown his sinfulness and being, I believe, worked over by the Holy Spirit. I have been able to spend some time with him. I am careful to provide the Scripture that comes to mind, yet at the same time, I am careful to keep my hands out of the matter.

Christ lives! The Kingdom is where Christ is.

SF, in response to your 3 points,

1) I agree.
2) I have several of his books in storage and he is consistent in all of them. I have not read Strange Fire, but I have read Charismatic Chaos.
3) I am not opposed to labels. I would label JM as a Soft Calvinist/Partial Determinist/Compatabalist.

Man is culpable for his sins because he is not free.