The Lordship salvation controversy.

[Artfuldodger]

I don't hardly ever agree with anyone about religion or politics. I do enjoy hearing all sides of a topic. It make me think and/or question what I believe and why.
I find a lot of what I believe is a result of being raised that way.

I will add that not everything I present for discussion is what I believe 100% but do have a leaning in that direction.

I don't think that the answer is always one way or the other to the extreme but somewhere in between.

Not every aspect of scripture points to predestination or free will. Not everything points to Lordship Salvation nor Easy Believism.

The word "repent" can mean many things and there can be more than one type of salvation.

I would think that most of the members on this forum do like to see other avenues other than just their own. If not then they wouldn't post a thread and ask, what do y'all think about this?

Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Thoughts?

 

[gemcgrew]

Furtaker is one of the best friends you could possibly have. He is proclaiming good news to sinners. But it is hard to find a sinner.

The self-righteous are aplenty.

 

[gemcgrew]

The more the believer grows in Truth and Knowledge, the greater the sinner he becomes.

 

[furtaker]

Furtaker is one of the best friends you could possibly have. He is proclaiming good news to sinners. But it is hard to find a sinner.

The self-righteous are aplenty.

Thank you sir. I used to believe the lordship message as well until a preacher opened my eyes to the truth and I've been grateful for it ever since. The Bible suddenly fit together and made sense for the first time in my life. I'm passionate about this issue.

My position is not the popular one. "Easy believism" is a misnomer. If it's so easy to believe, how come more people don't believe this message? 99% of the world believes you have to be good to get to heaven. Very few people believe that you get there by simply believing in Jesus, regardless of how you live on Earth.

 

[hoytman308]

I'm not sure I catch your meaning regarding "no choice". Are you speaking of the slave having no choice about entering the relationship or no choice once IN the relationship or both?

Well I have never been in a master/ slave relationship and I’ve only been on this earth 37 years but to my understanding of being a slave is you don’t have a choice to be free hence you’re a slave. In my faith the Lord Jesus Christ gives the choice to follow him or go your own way. In that type of relationship there is no way it could ever be master/ slave. Same way with marriage between a man and a woman. If the woman willingly wants to be with the man then there is her choice which in the same sense it’s the man’s choice as well. Now if the man bound the woman and MADE her do as he wished with no regard to her desires/ wants or love then he has enslaved her and she has no choice. You see this crap happen all the time in this country especially men abducting women/ children and enslaving them for their pleasures. Whether it be sexual pleasures or money pleasures it’s the cause and effect of enslaving people against their will. God does not EVER do this. It’s all free will and choice. That my friend is not slavery.

 

[Israel]

For whoever was called in the Lord as a slave is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was free when called is a slave of Christ.

 

[gemcgrew]

God does not EVER do this.

Have you ever read the Bible?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Well I have never been in a master/ slave relationship and I’ve only been on this earth 37 years but to my understanding of being a slave is you don’t have a choice to be free hence you’re a slave. In my faith the Lord Jesus Christ gives the choice to follow him or go your own way. In that type of relationship there is no way it could ever be master/ slave. Same way with marriage between a man and a woman. If the woman willingly wants to be with the man then there is her choice which in the same sense it’s the man’s choice as well. Now if the man bound the woman and MADE her do as he wished with no regard to her desires/ wants or love then he has enslaved her and she has no choice. You see this crap happen all the time in this country especially men abducting women/ children and enslaving them for their pleasures. Whether it be sexual pleasures or money pleasures it’s the cause and effect of enslaving people against their will. God does not EVER do this. It’s all free will and choice. That my friend is not slavery.

It think SemperFiDawg meant one can volunteer to be a slave. Maybe.

Did Jesus volunteer to become a slave to God and man? Can we submitt and become a slave to Jesus?

I do see your point though in that Slaves can't volunteer to leave. That once in a Master/Slave relationship, the slave can't back our of it unless the Master releases him.

Scripture does say that Jesus emptied himself, taking the form of a slave.

 

[gemcgrew]

For whoever was called in the Lord as a slave is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was free when called is a slave of Christ.

True freedom is found in this slavery.... only.

 

[Israel]

Jesus spoke to some Jews who believed Him, some who said (in boast?) "we have never been slaves"

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

some asked if they were blind

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Jesus responded:

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

one man surveyed all his own doing to the death and accepted to himself his right position:

I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

and was surprised

and two men prayed

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:

The context of Paul's words:

For whoever was called in the Lord as a slave is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was free when called is a slave of Christ.

Appear in the matter remaining as you have been when you are called. The equity and equality of brothers before the Lord is not dependent upon man's seeing and judgment of station...there is no shame to being a slave. There need be no resistance against it in that worldly station.

Nor is there boast over one by one who is free...for both are equal...the slave being made free in Christ (yet now solely through belonging to Christ), the free being made slave of Christ. There is, it would appear, an equality of experience...both freedom and slavery. And perhaps therefore there cannot be, nor should there be any despising of one against the other.

But the deeper matter of slavery, I am persuaded, is not dis-annulled by reduction in considerations of worldly station. The once being a slave to sin is addressed in many places. And if a man would seek to reduce his "sinning" to any sort of willing, or mere willing cooperation in it (as though he at any time could will himself free of it) it only further condemns the will...with no exoneration even then remotely possible to it. The "will" that is captured to sin...is so captured indeed in its cooperation, and only so deceived by sin thinking at any time it might withdraw its cooperation in it by pledge "it wills" to now assign to another.

The will has no power in itself to change masters. Indeed again, any celebration of the will's power in freedom only further condemns itself by its manifest devotion to sin.

A man in a cesspool may think himself free "I am free to stand here or there, I am free to swim, to do the backstroke, the breast stroke, or the butterfly. And I am free to consider whatever I so choose..." But he cannot will himself "out". The will so celebrated has no power especially to be "free".

Is it any wonder then that Jesus, in so speaking to those "who believed Him" is so resisted at this point of "freedom" He declares is exclusive to Himself and His giving, that by the end of the account (John 8:31) they "who believed him" had taken up stones to stone Him?

And God knows if it is here, perhaps even specifically here when in God's time it is shown to such a man that is ready to "take up stones against the Lord" and there finds himself revealed...that this word may become especially potent..."Fear not little flock it is the Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom"? The man's will "to be right" is broken upon a rock to the revealing of the will to save...even, and especially when he was rushing "in all will" to a right judgment to destruction.

The disclosure that "the will" that touts its freedom is continually all and only he11 bent is a great offense.

It must and can only be captured by another if that "another" is superior to the former master to his plain disarming and plunder.

If Peter's lesson of his poverty is not our own of any power to will to our own doing "even if they all desert you I will not" (I will to not) it must be made so. This is especially true in regard to all the Lord declares. "You will all desert me" was not made open for debate of who might "will against that".

"As you say Lord" may take, indeed must take, precisely as long as the Lord has appointed till it be said. No man can even "will" himself to that place. Here is where will and yes, even desire must see they are "in the hand of another". For as easily as a man may be fooled by his own will, his own desire will also, no less. We may, to that point think we can offer "our desire" to the Lord as a fitting thing, and until it is disclosed we go about in deepest place thinking "see, I only want what is right and good!"

Herein may God's mercy and patience through Christ be appreciated.

We will and present to God our many desires in salvation such as we understand both it (salvation) and them. God is not despising anymore than He despised "if it be possible let this cup pass". For it is only in and through Christ that "Come, let us reason together" is the reality. And may things we say and hear sink down in our hearing to such unbearable wondering we find but only one place to go with them. May they in consideration become so unsettling we have no choice, Yes! no choice at all...as to where resort is found of all settlement.

For he (God) hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[hummerpoo]

Jesus spoke to some Jews who believed Him, some who said (in boast?) "we have never been slaves"

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

some asked if they were blind

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Jesus responded:

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

one man surveyed all his own doing to the death and accepted to himself his right position:

I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

and was surprised

and two men prayed

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:

The context of Paul's words:

For whoever was called in the Lord as a slave is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was free when called is a slave of Christ.

Appear in the matter remaining as you have been when you are called. The equity and equality of brothers before the Lord is not dependent upon man's seeing and judgment of station...there is no shame to being a slave. There need be no resistance against it in that worldly station.

Nor is there boast over one by one who is free...for both are equal...the slave being made free in Christ (yet now solely through belonging to Christ), the free being made slave of Christ. There is, it would appear, an equality of experience...both freedom and slavery. And perhaps therefore there cannot be, nor should there be any despising of one against the other.

But the deeper matter of slavery, I am persuaded, is not dis-annulled by reduction in considerations of worldly station. The once being a slave to sin is addressed in many places. And if a man would seek to reduce his "sinning" to any sort of willing, or mere willing cooperation in it (as though he at any time could will himself free of it) it only further condemns the will...with no exoneration even then remotely possible to it. The "will" that is captured to sin...is so captured indeed in its cooperation, and only so deceived by sin thinking at any time it might withdraw its cooperation in it by pledge "it wills" to now assign to another.

The will has no power in itself to change masters. Indeed again, any celebration of the will's power in freedom only further condemns itself by its manifest devotion to sin.

A man in a cesspool may think himself free "I am free to stand here or there, I am free to swim, to do the backstroke, the breast stroke, or the butterfly. And I am free to consider whatever I so choose..." But he cannot will himself "out". The will so celebrated has no power especially to be "free".

Is it any wonder then that Jesus, in so speaking to those "who believed Him" is so resisted at this point of "freedom" He declares is exclusive to Himself and His giving, that by the end of the account (John 8:31) they "who believed him" had taken up stones to stone Him?

And God knows if it is here, perhaps even specifically here when in God's time it is shown to such a man that is ready to "take up stones against the Lord" and there finds himself revealed...that this word may become especially potent..."Fear not little flock it is the Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom"? The man's will "to be right" is broken upon a rock to the revealing of the will to save...even, and especially when he was rushing "in all will" to a right judgment to destruction.

The disclosure that "the will" that touts its freedom is continually all and only he11 bent is a great offense.

It must and can only be captured by another if that "another" is superior to the former master to his plain disarming and plunder.

If Peter's lesson of his poverty is not our own of any power to will to our own doing "even if they all desert you I will not" (I will to not) it must be made so. This is especially true in regard to all the Lord declares. "You will all desert me" was not made open for debate of who might "will against that".

"As you say Lord" may take, indeed must take, precisely as long as the Lord has appointed till it be said. No man can even "will" himself to that place. Here is where will and yes, even desire must see they are "in the hand of another". For as easily as a man may be fooled by his own will, his own desire will also, no less. We may, to that point think we can offer "our desire" to the Lord as a fitting thing, and until it is disclosed we go about in deepest place thinking "see, I only want what is right and good!"

Herein may God's mercy and patience through Christ be appreciated.

We will and present to God our many desires in salvation such as we understand both it (salvation) and them. God is not despising anymore than He despised "if it be possible let this cup pass". For it is only in and through Christ that "Come, let us reason together" is the reality. And may things we say and hear sink down in our hearing to such unbearable wondering we find but only one place to go with them. May they in consideration become so unsettling we have no choice, Yes! no choice at all...as to where resort is found of all settlement.

For he (God) hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

One of several salient points demanding our consideration:

For whoever was called in the Lord as a slave is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was free when called is a slave of Christ.

Appear in the matter remaining as you have been when you are called. The equity and equality of brothers before the Lord is not dependent upon man's seeing and judgment of station...there is no shame to being a slave. There need be no resistance against it in that worldly station.

Nor is there boast over one by one who is free...for both are equal...the slave being made free in Christ (yet now solely through belonging to Christ), the free being made slave of Christ. There is, it would appear, an equality of experience...both freedom and slavery. And perhaps therefore there cannot be, nor should there be any despising of one against the other.

The comments on the nature of "will" are particularly useful.

 

[hoytman308]

It think SemperFiDawg meant one can volunteer to be a slave. Maybe.

Did Jesus volunteer to become a slave to God and man? Can we submitt and become a slave to Jesus?

I do see your point though in that Slaves can't volunteer to leave. That once in a Master/Slave relationship, the slave can't back our of it unless the Master releases him.

Scripture does say that Jesus emptied himself, taking the form of a slave.

So if you VOLUNTEER that would mean you make the choice. So how is that make you a slave? The Lord Jesus Christ gives the choice. Again if it’s forced it’s not much of a relationship whether it be friends/ boyfriend & girlfriend/ spouse etc. In my opinion fellas you can only skin this cat one way. We have the choice to pick up that cross and follow him. We have the choice between right and wrong. He wants us to want to have a relationship with him. A daily walk trying to be just like Christ. If we could accomplish that one task this world would be something unimaginable which in my opinion will be heaven one day.

 

[hoytman308]

Have you ever read the Bible?

Yessir I have... Not real sure what that question is supposed to imply. I’m no theologian by any means but what I do know is that I’m saved by the grace of God and want to follow him as best I can in everything I do. I know what I know from being in church and reading my Bible. If there is something you could teach me I’m all ears brother.

 

[hoytman308]

Have you ever read the Bible?

If you have time put a few bible versus with your reply. I want to look them up and get the full context of the passage. Thanks again.

 

[hummerpoo]

Repentance is a gift, as are all things in and of Christ, that is then offered to God in display of reception.

It is less that "we change our minds" then we are gifted with the sight/perception/revelation of another true mind. This is what changes us.

When one considers some of the all that may be found in this declaration "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness" there may come some appreciation of unfathomable grace.

Who "gives credit" to a thing for believing the only One who does not lie? What place would there be, is there, or could there be for any man to take such credit "to himself"? Yet...it is credited to him as rightness, righteousness. To this end Abraham was fashioned before Abraham even knew of Abraham.

A thing doing or being what it is made to do or be knows of no credit it can take to itself or for itself.

It is not as though Jesus Christ were unaware of something very much wanting to "take" a credit to itself, and/or to take advantage of man in that through its influence. And he knew how temptation to think "more highly of ourselves than we ought" would be a stumbling for us. And then for others.

He tells us of the attitude of what would be described as no less than a full grown disciple, "who has done all he was commanded". He gives a something to see and consider.

Then, we discover He is giving us Himself.

O! but there is joy in salvation!
To begin to see and know the One who has fashioned us with, by, and in His purpose to know it. The only God of all gods that has ever desired man to know His joy.

The only God of all joy.

We can not "choose" that which we do not have.
We can not "receive" that which we already possess.

Man's will is to do that which is apparently best for him at the moment, given immediate knowledge.
At one moment a man might eat a Snickers Bar. Upon learning that he has diabetes he might not eat a Snickers bar (eating with contrary knowledge requires additional premises that lead to infinite regression).

One who willingly becomes a slave must possess knowledge of the superiority of that relationship.
One who willingly does not become a slave must not possess knowledge of the superiority of that relationship.

True knowledge made available to the mind can not be refused, it's influence on the will is irresistible (one can not willingly forget).
The receiving of the knowledge of the superiority of life in Christ, necessitates that we are a slave to the giver of that knowledge.

Given that true knowledge of Christ is from Christ, a man can not willingly choose Christ before Christ chooses the man by the gracious gift of true knowledge. A man can not willingly reject Christ once He is chosen by Christ as he would be rejecting the superlative relationship and, therefore, against his will.

Man is free to act upon his will, which will has been determined by Christ's free choice.

 

[Artfuldodger]

So if you VOLUNTEER that would mean you make the choice. So how is that make you a slave? The Lord Jesus Christ gives the choice. Again if it’s forced it’s not much of a relationship whether it be friends/ boyfriend & girlfriend/ spouse etc. In my opinion fellas you can only skin this cat one way. We have the choice to pick up that cross and follow him. We have the choice between right and wrong. He wants us to want to have a relationship with him. A daily walk trying to be just like Christ. If we could accomplish that one task this world would be something unimaginable which in my opinion will be heaven one day.

I think Paul used the slave analogy as that was the closest thing he could think of in our would. He more or less said it is was just an example.
Paul uses the marriage and slavery metaphor to show obedience maybe. Who is the head of who. When we were born again, we became a slave of God, now obedient to a new master. There is never a moment in anyone’s life in which we are not a slave. We just change masters, from being a slave to sin to being a slave to God.

I do see your point about volunteering to be a slave though. Why can't one choose to switch masters? In the world of man, no but spiritually?

Maybe Paul completely missed the boat using the Master/Slave metaphor.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I would add that the Slavery metaphor is about submission more than choosing to become a slave.
Paul wasn’t just a regular slave, that his use of the term “bondslave” (rather than “slave” or “servant”) refers to the "voluntary" slavery of Exodus 21, highlighting Paul’s piety or underscoring some difference between these concepts.
Etymologically, “bond-servant” is used to distinguish a purchased slave who is owned by (bound to) his master from a servant who is simply hired help but is free to go elsewhere.

 

[Artfuldodger]

So if you VOLUNTEER that would mean you make the choice. So how is that make you a slave? The Lord Jesus Christ gives the choice. Again if it’s forced it’s not much of a relationship whether it be friends/ boyfriend & girlfriend/ spouse etc. In my opinion fellas you can only skin this cat one way. We have the choice to pick up that cross and follow him. We have the choice between right and wrong. He wants us to want to have a relationship with him. A daily walk trying to be just like Christ. If we could accomplish that one task this world would be something unimaginable which in my opinion will be heaven one day.

The choice between right and wrong that we have and our daily walk to be like Christ, what does that mean to you?
Is it related to being obedient? If so what are the commands?

John 14:15
Jesus said to his disciples: If you love me, you will do as I command.

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

I'm wondering if it's something that's a matter of the heart that was placed upon our heart by Jesus and related to "love."
Or is there a Command List that we, as Bond Servants, are suppose to follow.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I also think about the Sheep and Goats being separated by their works or deeds of feeding and clothing, visiting prisons, etc.

Also works are a part of the resurrection;
those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

It sounds like a resurrection of the Good and Evil, not a resurrection of the Believers and non-believers.

 

[hoytman308]

The choice between right and wrong that we have and our daily walk to be like Christ, what does that mean to you?
Is it related to being obedient? If so what are the commands?

John 14:15
Jesus said to his disciples: If you love me, you will do as I command.

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

I'm wondering if it's something that's a matter of the heart that was placed upon our heart by Jesus and related to "love."
Or is there a Command List that we, as Bond Servants, are suppose to follow.

I agree with exactly what you said. The “choice” between right and wrong. It’s still our choice. While the Lord commands us to do as he says you still have to cross the threshold of making that choice to follow him. Hence every time the word “love” is used. Its crystal clear to me it’s a choice but if we CHOOSE him then his commandments are the guide line to victory in this earthly walk that we endure on this earth. To me there is no two ways about it. If you love him you will want to have the desire too follow his commandments. I think of it this way too... if you have a wife and you love her like the Lord loves us and some smoking hot woman comes along you have a choice to follow the human natural flesh or adhere to the marriage vowels you said to her. If your love is true like the Lords love is to us there will be no question as the the “guideline/ vowels” to made to her on that special day. That’s how I see it. It’s about loving and nothing more than that for each and every one of us.