These few things I know.

[hummerpoo]

Calvin got introduced into this discussion some time back. For what reason I can only surmise, but I would guess it has more to do with "whose water are you carrying" than anything else. "Tell me whose water you are carrying and I will tailor my response to you accordingly" seemed pretty much the way of it.

As I recall Hummer (whom I have never seen treat anyone with less than an almost painful respect...suffering to an almost exasperation) both saw it, and saw through it. I know others did too, just preferred not to comment upon it. Probably (in my estimation) seeing it was being handled.

Call this a theological prescription or not, call it whatever one cares to, it matters not. Those that know it, live in it, those that don't...simply don't...yet. But I am also quite convinced none of does not find the extreme of benefit of reminder to it, if even we have let it slip in our consciousness. There's not a one of us who need "try and be transparent". We just are. Trying to hide transparency by "trying to be" is as silly an effort as trying to be like Christ to the convincing of others.

(Does one need that equation explained?) That folly?

But, why would any of us need to be reminded of its truth...and benefit? Probably because none of us like to be seen through...generally it's not pleasant to have one's motives exposed to a greater degree than one understands them themselves. To have it made so plain that a man does not even know himself to the measure he imagines he does. And...made too plain...that if a man does not even know himself very well, (if at all) everything else is so skewed and screwed up according to that misinformation as to be mostly...spuriously spewed data.

Do you hear spirits?

Do you know what answer doesn't matter at all to that question?

Any.

Do you know God?

Ditto.

Yet...even as God needs no one to explain either Himself nor His motives, unless one has been carried away to dumb idols thinking it (them) is/are God, there's gonna be a whole lot of "why do you gotta be that way?" veiled in as much dumbness a man can muster to hide his own self...from himself. Serving a dumb idol.

No doubt we all like to assume we know what love "feels like".

Till someone we think we love comes along and we offer our best effort to let them know we do...and they respond..."get thee behind me Satan"

Do you hear spirits?

When I told Sweetie, who may know me better than I know myself, what you had said of me, she suggest that I should respond that she was ROFL..."what's that?" ... "rolling on floor laughing".

Although it is sorely tempting to sit back and enjoy the complementary things you have said about me; because of my superior perspective (being closer to the subject), it would be less that honest of me not to set the record straight.

If I see God in everything (animate or inanimate, simple or elaborate, voluntary or involuntary, natural or supernatural, temporal or eternal), it is not me that sees, but God that reveals to me. Therefore, I do not then respect any thing but God who has revealed for His Purpose and Glory. Neither have I created this perspective; to the degree that I have it, it has been graciously given, nor do I suggest that all things are made easy by this way; I'm saying that nothing is possible by any other way.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

If I was anti-knowledge, I'm sure that I would feel the same way.

Anti-knowledge? Funny, but I'll wear that and wear it with pride if that's YOUR label for me.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Yep, said and implied.

SMH.

 

[hummerpoo]

SFD, I can't help but think that you are "short selling" yourself; and possibly God in the process. Short selling grows from a pessimistic outlook. Consistent long-term pessimism is difficult for a believer.

As I read scripture, we are instructed that we are to grow in faith and knowledge under the hand of the immanent God. Just one example is 2 Peter which starts and ends with knowledge (1:2,3,5,6; 3:18).

No, not every disciple has been gifted, or called, as an apologist, prophet, or evangelist. But we are instructed to "Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. ..." (1 Cor. 14). As believers we must desire to be "in the center of God's will", to use your words, but that does no negate our desiring that we grow in our knowledge of God, as we are amply instructed in His Word.

 

[Israel]

When I told Sweetie, who may know me better than I know myself, what you had said of me, she suggest that I should respond that she was ROFL..."what's that?" ... "rolling on floor laughing".

Although it is sorely tempting to sit back and enjoy the complementary things you have said about me; because of my superior perspective (being closer to the subject), it would be less that honest of me not to set the record straight.

If I see God in everything (animate or inanimate, simple or elaborate, voluntary or involuntary, natural or supernatural, temporal or eternal), it is not me that sees, but God that reveals to me. Therefore, I do not then respect any thing but God who has revealed for His Purpose and Glory. Neither have I created this perspective; to the degree that I have it, it has been graciously given, nor do I suggest that all things are made easy by this way; I'm saying that nothing is possible by any other way.

It's funny...right?
I may have the smallest sense (of all men) who might not be harmed by my note, having some convincing that if or when said...they are also in receipt of that knowing (and surely not by me, or my note of it) that their estate, being noted...is all of gift.

But the funnier part is particularly what you mention. The small matter of being known...and sometimes far better than we know ourselves...that transparency of which we must be convinced if we are to continue...(maybe even start?) is easily manifest if a man marries a woman of God. Even if a man is doubtful of his ability to be seen plainly (not all men need wives, of course) but if one has been gifted to receive one (a woman of God)...he comes to learn how precious that gift is...in a directing toward truth. That is, if a created being as myself can see through all my attempts to hide too exquisitely and painfully well...how much more the Lord!?

It might be one of the most glorious revelations the Lord can use a wife for...to help bring a man to know

"Hey...I am being both known...and loved!"

For...till then...he is quite convinced they must remain separate things.
(If I would "have love" I must not let anyone see...)

And then the man might, as you have well written, understand

I'm saying that nothing is possible by any other way.

And never was.

I am persuaded that when Mary heard herself being commended for having "chosen the better part" of sitting enraptured at the Lord's feet to hear what He had to say, she would not exchange that rapture for a pride in what appeared her choice...or take her commendation above any and everything else the Lord was saying to her.

Or, if she did, in patience the Lord reminded her of those many other things He has to say.

I really don't see the Lord settling for less than His fullness of joy being found considering into what He had to go into to come out on the other side to deliver it.

"And they were in disbelief for joy" at His appearing...and He surely knew they would be.

Hey, you guys got anything here to eat?


LOL...(or ROFL) as if He didn't know!

 

[Ray357]

SMH.

Whatever! (Since we gonna use 16 year old school girl phrases)

This is an example of what's wrong with the Church today. Sing loud. Clap a lot. Be happy. Be a better you. Whatever you do, don't worry about sound doctrine. Definitely don't worry about doctrines that might knock the happy off the clappy. Let's have another sociology lesson with a scripture verse thrown in it somewhere.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Whatever! (Since we gonna use 16 year old school girl phrases)

This is an example of what's wrong with the Church today. Sing loud. Clap a lot. Be happy. Be a better you. Whatever you do, don't worry about sound doctrine. Definitely don't worry about doctrines that might knock the happy off the clappy. Let's have another sociology lesson with a scripture verse thrown in it somewhere.

I don’t have enough bumper for all them stickers.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

SFD, I can't help but think that you are "short selling" yourself; and possibly God in the process. Short selling grows from a pessimistic outlook. Consistent long-term pessimism is difficult for a believer.

As I read scripture, we are instructed that we are to grow in faith and knowledge under the hand of the immanent God. Just one example is 2 Peter which starts and ends with knowledge (1:2,3,5,6; 3:18).

No, not every disciple has been gifted, or called, as an apologist, prophet, or evangelist. But we are instructed to "Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. ..." (1 Cor. 14). As believers we must desire to be "in the center of God's will", to use your words, but that does no negate our desiring that we grow in our knowledge of God, as we are amply instructed in His Word.

I’m not. I’ve read the Bible probably 6-10 times cover to cover and have studied it in depth for years. Did it increase my knowledge? Absolutely. Did it create a relationship with God? No. Did it save me? No. The Gospel, the Life, all the Blessings of God is in the application, not the consumption and regurgitation. I’m not anti-knowledge, but it only takes the mind of a child to enter into the Kingdom with all its wondrous miracles, but we don’t talk about that here. Strange given the membership. What is talked about here? Doctrinal debate ad nausea. One would think a group of actual believers could do nothing more than share their testimonies every day about what God has done for or showed them the last 24 hours. Yet that is the ONE thing that doesn’t happen. You have to ask yourself why. If God IS in our life, working in our life, is debating unimportant views of doctrine the best we have to offer. I suggest that happens because no one can relate what God has done for them. May want to look into why.

 

[Ray357]

I’m not. I’ve read the Bible probably 6-10 times cover to cover and have studied it in depth for years. Did it increase my knowledge? Absolutely. Did it create a relationship with God? No. Did it save me? No. The Gospel, the Life, all the Blessings of God is in the application, not the consumption and regurgitation. I’m not anti-knowledge, but it only takes the mind of a child to enter into the Kingdom with all its wondrous miracles, but we don’t talk about that here. Strange given the membership. What is talked about here? Doctrinal debate ad nausea. One would think a group of actual believers could do nothing more than share their testimonies every day about what God has done for or showed them the last 24 hours. Yet that is the ONE thing that doesn’t happen. You have to ask yourself why. If God IS in our life, working in our life, is debating unimportant views of doctrine the best we have to offer. I suggest that happens because no one can relate what God has done for them. May want to look into why.

So, just perhaps, we don't discuss the above because we agree on it.
You did bring up application. I agree, application is of utmost importance. How can one apply what they do not know?
2Tim 2:15-22

 

[hummerpoo]

I’m not. I’ve read the Bible probably 6-10 times cover to cover and have studied it in depth for years. Did it increase my knowledge? Absolutely. Did it create a relationship with God? No. Did it save me? No. The Gospel, the Life, all the Blessings of God is in the application, not the consumption and regurgitation. I’m not anti-knowledge, but it only takes the mind of a child to enter into the Kingdom with all its wondrous miracles, but we don’t talk about that here. Strange given the membership. What is talked about here? Doctrinal debate ad nausea. One would think a group of actual believers could do nothing more than share their testimonies every day about what God has done for or showed them the last 24 hours. Yet that is the ONE thing that doesn’t happen. You have to ask yourself why. If God IS in our life, working in our life, is debating unimportant views of doctrine the best we have to offer. I suggest that happens because no one can relate what God has done for them. May want to look into why.

I seem to have failed to convey the desired message by citing scripture so I guess I might as well try Theologians, at least two of which (both scripturally sound), I know you don't care who, and that I can paraphrase, have concluded that "we do not understand in order to believe, we believe in order to understand"; from which I infer that belief from understanding is worthless and that it is the understanding from belief which facilitates the living of our faith.

 

[gemcgrew]

I seem to have failed to convey the desired message by citing scripture so I guess I might as well try Theologians, at least two of which (both scripturally sound), I know you don't care who, and that I can paraphrase, have concluded that "we do not understand in order to believe, we believe in order to understand"; from which I infer that belief from understanding is worthless and that it is the understanding from belief which facilitates the living of our faith.

Theology is worthless as well, when it doesn't have God in His Rightful place from the start.

All men have naturalistic theology(innate)and are without excuse. Some have Biblical theology(God revealed).

 

[gordon 2]

Knowledge is a two edged sword. You get to know what is good as against what is not so good.

I recall when I was a child and I did not know good or evil in alot of people. All I knew is that there were in people's eyes what I would call an honest and loving spark. I remember that.

And as I got older I got to know more and well my uncle walked on my toy airplane one day and the propeller and the wheels got out of time when I pushed it on the floor and one wing ended all wrong. It was a cool plane all made of metal. But now it was ruined! Imagine something made of metal that was supposed to fly in the grown up world could no longer fly in my imagination!

I complained to my mom that uncle had walked on my plane. She said, "Well don't leave your toys on the floor!"

Things changed after that.

After that when I saw car wrecks I knew my uncle must of been in on it.

And much latter when I got to be a man, I found out that my uncle was a WW2 vet. He drank a bit. Had PTSD from fighting Italy, Holland and Belgium. When he got back from the war he had to stay in a hospital for 2 yrs with TB.

Recently I found out from my brother that Grand Ma said the war ruined my uncle. She said he was so loving and caring of others before... but ended up a bitter person after.

I sort of know what she meant. I wish I could go back to before he walked on my toy plane and I did not have much knowledge of much other than people like him had love in their eyes if you looked at them before you knew too much.

Wouldn't it be nice if one day we could all be like children can be and the whole world was in love and our toy plane propellers and wheel gears were in sync.

O and I recently found out that my uncle might of been in on the shooting down of three planes that were hammering his line ( Italy). The planes were friendlies... who had mistaken them for the enemy.

Sometimes people might just walk on planes, even toy ones and not give a ____. Some things you just can't forget when you know stuff.

 

[gordon 2]

I'm not sure everyone hears a testimony as a testimony...even when one is given.
And some, hearing an understanding that another is living in are amazed at the goodness of God to give such to men, knowing the man didn't come by it "of himself".

I hear a lot of testimonies. And often things providing visions of God at work upon hearts and minds through Jesus Christ upon the several who frequent here. Even daily. And sometimes...there's a grace to catch that vision of the one always at work, doing His always work.

"that you believe upon Him whom He has sent".

Make no mistake I love to hear about coins found in fishes mouths, men finding help with diseases, pains, problems, and even the wonders of visions and dreams. And men conquering demons through the power of the Name.

But I cannot deny the taste of the conviction of righteousness found in Jesus Christ, and His continuing work to bring to perfection, exceeds.

I still like candy, and probably as an almost 70 yo, eat more than could be considered (if it could ever be considered) necessary.

You will never find me knocking candy.

But:


Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

I'm moved by the wonder of men discovering this...and who have been so "moved" from a "here" to there...that looking around where their names are written...can and do, tell me what that "there" is like.

There! There!

 

[gordon 2]

There! There!

Unless you are being sarcastic,

could it also be that you would subject to vanity that one who's name be written in heaven, when in fact the name is naturally subject to charity and inseparable of the substance of charity.

The joy is leavened that love is inseparable of the self perhaps. There would not be a vanity to it. There would be no trophy name to put out there to prance one's vanity --pride there fully missing. Nevertheless there would still be a there from somewhere that once was into vanity. All in on charity seems to rule out even a hint of arrogance.

Maybe. Sorta. Kinda. "Filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ".

"God is my witness how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus. 9And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10so that you may be able to test and prove what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,…"

 

[Israel]

Who wants to hear a testimony?

 

[Israel]

This showed up (today!) on a page I check daily...should I try to get it? As years advance so often do skills and what once appeared irreparable...may not be.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/427439678532926

looks like this if link disappears:

 

[Israel]

Or is it enough to know nothing entrusted to the Lord can be lost?

 

[gordon 2]

What does entrusted mean in the context here?

Some have a personal witness and some don't. Why? I have suggested before that greater faith might have those who have no personal witness. Yet, I recall my bishop writing that ideally to be ministers ( teachers) one should have the personal witness of Jesus.

What is the purpose of personal witness to those who have it not themselves? Other than to say the Holy Spirit was here at this time and this place? It is not a witness of the self , nor an item of the marketplace, but a witness of God's power to pierce the temporal in today's generation perhaps in a way that scripture can't.

Most believers know that some individuals have "seen" and that there is no rhyme or reason why it was them and not some others--except that Jesus asked all kinds to follow and many who did saw.

The toy plane is a pretty bird. Imagine the possibilities?

Now on the other hand what was the witness of the Scribes...that their imaginations were framed-in by what scripture says --- by what scripture reveals?

Very few things I know, but I know where Paul scratched his head to make a saint out of a sow's ear and for some reason he found it useful to recount his testimony. So I suppose you can give yours. Go for it. It might not convince a scribe but it might provide a pause for latter conviction. God knows.

 

[Israel]

Perhaps before I testify (if I am allowed) in "a" testimony (for in the sense I took Semper's exhortation it is to a "them" and not merely an it...as a one time event) the matter of sarcasm having been raised, should probably be addressed.

I can believe a man could be sarcastic without his even knowing, in some form of imagining that he speak or act of a sincerity that God waits only to reveal as less than sincere in some way. Two scriptures come to mind:

These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

Do we understand this? Is there a "testimony" amongst us of some experience? And rather than say anything more about it...is there any other man here (here I am entreating for a testimony of truth to it) who has had what they receive as a particular light shone upon it? Am I allowed to ask, allowed to enquire "in the temple"? Or is that presumption? Even a sarcasm? God knows.

The other is of Paul's writing:

For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Other translations (to me) simplify it, "My conscience is clear...but that does not make me innocent..."

Again...is there understanding? No man need accept mine or even need to hear it, but does any man (other man?) believe they hear what Paul is saying?

Yes, I believe a conscience can be seared to the extent that what passes (to him) for clarity or being clear "in" it, is only a scarred dullness of sensation unknown to the man. A man can (and does) easily presume himself innocent, thinking his motives always pure. In fact...presumption always leads there.

And I am not only sure I could be that man...but can also surely testify I have been.
But even that testimony does not now "clear me".

So, as to the possibility I may be being sarcastic (which has been raised) would it be wiser to make answer according to, or provoked by, some desire to "clear myself"...or even apply another of Paul's exhortations...to "judge nothing before the time" but wait for the Lord's appearing in it? To find I have been, and am made free of even having to judge myself...in some trust, due to an experience of that first bit of scripture...God always wills to show up to set the record straight? To set in order before thine eyes.

But, I am not wise, only fearful. And I believe the wise understand my fear.

Let us talk about two edged swords.
How that a thing wielded works two ways.

Since we so often brush up against...or even frankly confront the matter of handling the scriptures rightly, (are they for a parrot's repetition...or coming from some conviction?) we engage in a digging...is the man speaking casually of a truth, or is that truth making the man...true? God knows the answer, but dare we deny such measuring/judgments...take place among us? Am I being presumptuous believing I seek to...and hear spirits...and actually cannot avoid it...? Even if I (or any man) hear all wrongly in regards to source?

Did Jesus not make clear all men are being led of something? Or, was Jesus actually saying Peter was himself Satan?

Do we all eagerly accept one another at our word...or does some acoustic come into play? Is Jesus Christ of well tuned ear...and therefore only well spoken word? Each man reading already makes his answer to God...how, or what he answers to men is not even secondary.

Yet, we are exhorted by that same spirit to "speak truth to one another" (unless one believes Paul of a different spirit)

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

(And it could be curious here...Paul does not even use the word "brother"...but neighbor...but is it curious? Shall a man be "more truthful" in the assembly? Pious faced, deferential, and all? What might be another word for a man who believes truth...malleable to situation or audience in determining the consistency of his deportment and speech? Yet, I think Hummer addressed that well enough.)

Was Pilate lying "Do you not know I have authority to kill you or let you go?"
We could speculate as to the many things that might have been said, but there's enough in His response to destroy all speculations. It might be enough for each man to simply review what he himself has said (needing no speculation) when any authority is exerted toward himself. Did he speak truth? And if he did...could he bear its speaking? Did he "meet" his word? Was he equal to it? Could he bear it?

Do each of us "have authority" to judge the speaking of any? Even to the testing of those who say they are apostles...but are not?

So, two men speak "a" truth.

Each says "only God is able to judge me"... or "God is my judge" as Paul said.

It is surely true, yet remains two edged. For the casual man (is he the parrot?) it is meant as comfort to escape the judgment of man and assume to himself a superior estate by claiming superiority of Judge.

The other man cannot deny the truth of it, and will not, but he knows how much is less in the judgment of man than to be troubled, for to the one he gives authority to "trouble him" is his lord over him, becoming subject then to man for both reproval and/or recommendation. And ultimately...he will have disclosed what "that man" is.
Approving of himself.

But the two edged-ness does not go away for the second or "other" man has learned that self approval, in that place he cannot deny before God as judge, (and cannot but confess) seems all but less than tenderly treated. When things are "set in order before his eyes".
Yet, he knows there is (again Hummer, am I fawning?) no other way...even knowing as Hummer has said:

Neither have I created this perspective; to the degree that I have it, it has been graciously given, nor do I suggest that all things are made easy by this way; I'm saying that nothing is possible by any other way.

nor do I suggest that all things are made easy by this way

I'm saying that nothing is possible by any other way.

Therefore lastly a repetition of Paul's words (that I either parrot for my own advantage) or am persuaded I speak before the wiser and truer than myself

"Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men"

If I am a liar it is of no use (except for a time to myself) to say to another "I was not being sarcastic" and only compounding a lie for if being already suspect I would only prove the accusation by entering into that burden of proof before men.

But the testimony before God in that undertaking would be far more grievous than I believe I could bear, that I am not already made transparent, and easily seen and seen through, and that, by those of God.

It is not only a matter of preference that I cannot care whether I be seen fool, liar, manipulator, heretic or even blasphemer...

I'm saying that nothing is possible by any other way.

When I weigh those words and listen for the acoustics I hear also a man who has been to the dungeon of men's placing, himself submitting to that placing as "outside the gate" where all of men's scorn and accusation are heaped...not because of his own preference, nor because he suggests things are made easy by this way.

Who has the almost embarrassing matter of having to deal with, negotiate, wend his way through some honor being given...making sure it is not a snare to capture by flattery?

Make no mistake as to my selfishness...see through me and therefore, past all deceit. But really don't stop till you see through a man of all vanity, all presumption, all devious intent and twisted motive. All ignorance and blindness and self exaltation. See through and assign his place.

You cannot only do this...you cannot avoid it.

Spectacles are only useful to be seen through.


See through all that can be seen wrong of "a" man...and find what's on the other side.

Then...get back to me.

But, many of you are already doing this, spectacles yourselves.

Your prayers of deliverance are made mighty through Whom you have found...even believing the chiefest of sinners can be saved.

And:

And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

Honor is the easiest thing on the soul to give when we see who gave it first, and to whom. And chose you, formed you, initiated you, to be included.

I'm saying nothing is possible any other way.

But, maybe, I am giving a testimony.

 

[gordon 2]

So this is the knowledge I have gained from this fellowship tread so far. Theology is a system to gain knowledge. Some say it is a more matured system compared natural theology.

Not all systems of theology are the same. Some have their departure from the witness of scripture first and some have other system from more equal sources and unequal sources, say scripture, tradition and the witness of individuals other than those within scripture.

Some saints can consent to the witness of scripture alone others can consent to the witness of the Church and other saints. Some can't consent to scripture alone and some can't consent to the Church that is not bible based.

Where theses systems get "sticky" for me is when to ideas on the Christian experience we glue our consent as opposed to the experience itself. In other words as the flesh is weak to properly assess and provide remedy, the renewed mind has no such weakness, is generally fearless and the source of genuine ministry.

Now the mind, renewed a powerful force for leaning and with an appointed system it, can be disciplined. And bent on the study of real elements, it can slip into error that ideas of this or that are the last word regards the reality of some tangible element-subject to which the system was subjected to. There are no outcomes possible other than what the system provides.

Did the gentile in Paul's day have a theological system available to drive them in the way? To mature them did they have such a system? They had the witness of the saints of what God was up to with explanation as to purpose. They had the witness of Christ from experience first and that experience could be mature because the experience was ongoing in the lives of individual and so the Church.

So what is the problem with a system of theology that has its source "the bible first" as a means to explore subjects such as tradition, the Church, salvation and God's makeup? It is that the witness of experience is compromised by a system with inherent bias and that ideas creep in and as in all systems become realities of their own which would not come about without the system and these creations of the mind become interpreted as elements of reality that no one outside of the system would consider as sound. In other words systems that organize the mind can promote themselves as systems and systems for the mature and become cults.

The system can defeat the purpose of God's designs to inform from experience ( from the eternal life experience) and yet claim it provides God's greatest purpose of informing a saint.

Systems are not perfect. I'm not certain but I don't think Jesus said it would be good to get one or two in order to follow him as we would need wear special garments to understand where God is "headed". I suspect that it was the experience that Jesus needed to beat them off his followers--systems, hats and coats. Though the mind was to be renewed, God was headed for the hearts of the babes and the mature. And therefore if knowledge is to be gained of exceptional importance to Christians it is from their willingness to reasonable dialogue in Christ with focus on love.

I have no conclusions. I have only more questions such as these ones. Is system theology an attempt to filter out weak flesh and vanity? Is it sucessful if the case.?


( It is not on purpose that no scripture was quoted.)

All praises to the Lord and thanks for a good hearted tread to all.