Adultery is NEVER OK

NE GA Pappy

Mr. Pappy
I see sinners everywhere. Especially when I am by myself.

boy, ain 't that the truth.

I tell people all the time that I know to do more good than I am doing. I am the biggest sinner of all.

I heard this once, and it is full of truth..


Hades will not be filled with people that God rejected, Hades will be filled with people that rejected God.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
Would you say Romans 9-11 shows more Free will or God's will? Starting with “Yet I have loved Jacobbut Esau I have hated. Then in Romans 11, a remnant was chosen by grace and the rest blinded. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Reading all three chapters sounds like a well orchestrated plan by God to blind the Jews and make his plan come about.
Maybe after the Cross, God's plan was finished and he no longer needed predestination and switched at that point to Free will and happenstance.
Paul rejected the idea that God was being unjust in choosing Jacob and not Esau.

God endured those vessels of wrath, these were people that would never change and never accept God’s plan and then He would accomplish His plan with them

Being all knowing, do you think he knew the path that Esau would take or do you think he designed Esau to purposely take that path?

Being created in his image, where would it indicate they’re created in another image and not of his likeness? The image of God isn’t two arms, two feet, and a body as we physically see it - possessing a soul, self-consciousness, consciousness of God and the ability to have a relationship with him.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Paul rejected the idea that God was being unjust in choosing Jacob and not Esau.

God endured those vessels of wrath, these were people that would never change and never accept God’s plan and then He would accomplish His plan with them

Being all knowing, do you think he knew the path that Esau would take or do you think he designed Esau to purposely take that path?

Being created in his image, where would it indicate they’re created in another image and not of his likeness? The image of God isn’t two arms, two feet, and a body as we physically see it - possessing a soul, self-consciousness, consciousness of God and the ability to have a relationship with him.
God says His election is based on grace and not works. He says this more than once. He also said, For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Later a Remnant was chosen on this same grace principle. The rest were hardened. 8 as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
God's answer in His word was not that he looked into the works of Esau or the Jews that he hardened after choosing a Remnant. God's answer was;
33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”…
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
God says His election is based on grace and not works. He says this more than once. He also said, For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Later a Remnant was chosen on this same grace principle. The rest were hardened. 8 as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
God's answer in His word was not that he looked into the works of Esau or the Jews that he hardened after choosing a Remnant. God's answer was;
33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”…
I don’t see anything to do with works. Choosing to serve God isn’t a work. God saw that Esau would never serve him. That’s being omniscient - all knowing. Esau hadn’t failed yet, but God knew he would. I don’t find scripture to support that anyone was created to fail. I find many to support an all knowing God that knows exactly what”ll you choose even before you’re born.
 
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Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
Art this is the question I’ve posed a couple of times.

“Being all knowing, do you think he knew the path that Esau would take or do you think he designed Esau to purposely take that path?”

Gods grace is sufficient for everyone and anyone that opens their heart to him.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Paul rejected the idea that God was being unjust in choosing Jacob and not Esau.

God endured those vessels of wrath, these were people that would never change and never accept God’s plan and then He would accomplish His plan with them

Being all knowing, do you think he knew the path that Esau would take or do you think he designed Esau to purposely take that path?

Being created in his image, where would it indicate they’re created in another image and not of his likeness? The image of God isn’t two arms, two feet, and a body as we physically see it - possessing a soul, self-consciousness, consciousness of God and the ability to have a relationship with him.
God choosing people and nations to make his plan come about has nothing to do with God being unjust. God choosing Jacob was already in place before the Word was born through genealogy.
God's example of why he loved Jacob and hated Esau has nothing to do with what they would or wouldn't do in the future. God uses Pharoah as an example. Pharoah was raised up for the very purpose God used him for. This too was already the plan before it happened. Israel rejecting the Messiah was already the plan. It does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. Nowhere does scripture say God looked ahead and seen what everyone would do and then made His plan happen by the action of men. What kind of a God would do such a thing?
God didn't just foresee it all, he made it happen according to His plan.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Art this is the question I’ve posed a couple of times.

“Being all knowing, do you think he knew the path that Esau would take or do you think he designed Esau to purposely take that path?”

Gods grace is sufficient for everyone and anyone that opens their heart to him.
I think God purposely chose Pharoah, Esau, and Israel to do what they did to assure His plan happen exactly the way He wanted it to. God isn't just all knowing, he is also all powerful.
If it was God looking forward and then using all of those people mentioned and events and nations, etc. to make His plan happen, that sounds like a weak God, not an all powerful God. Why would an all powerful God go to so much trouble to do that? Where in scripture does God saying "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and harden the rest" mean "because I looked ahead to the future and that's why?"
That makes God basing his plan on the actions of man, not the other way around. Like God doing plan A but having to go to plan B based on the actions of man. I don't think God has a plan B.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Art this is the question I’ve posed a couple of times.

“Being all knowing, do you think he knew the path that Esau would take or do you think he designed Esau to purposely take that path?”

Gods grace is sufficient for everyone and anyone that opens their heart to him.
I've got a question as well. If God did see what all of those examples would do in the future, could they then do other than what God had already seen?
If not then does it really matter if Pharoah or Esau or Israel had freewill or were predestined to do God's plan? Perhaps they did have freewill but since God saw what they would do, he still got to use them just the same. Either way, it matters not.

Consider Pharoah, God said I raised you, I appointed you, I made you, I looked ahead and seen what you would do and used you, etc. What difference does it really matter? Does one way make God evil or having less mercy on whom he will have mercy?

Again scripture doesn't say God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy based on His foreknowledge of the future actions of those men. At least not for Pharoah or Esau.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
I think God purposely chose Pharoah, Esau, and Israel to do what they did to assure His plan happen exactly the way He wanted it to. God isn't just all knowing, he is also all powerful.
If it was God looking forward and then using all of those people mentioned and events and nations, etc. to make His plan happen, that sounds like a weak God, not an all powerful God. Why would an all powerful God go to so much trouble to do that? Where in scripture does God saying "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and harden the rest" mean "because I looked ahead to the future and that's why?"
That makes God basing his plan on the actions of man, not the other way around. Like God doing plan A but having to go to plan B based on the actions of man. I don't think God has a plan B.
I can go with purposely choosing them. I can’t go with purposely creating them to fail.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
I've got a question as well. If God did see what all of those examples would do in the future, could they then do other than what God had already seen?
If not then does it really matter if Pharoah or Esau or Israel had freewill or were predestined to do God's plan? Perhaps they did have freewill but since God saw what they would do, he still got to use them just the same. Either way, it matters not.

Consider Pharoah, God said I raised you, I appointed you, I made you, I looked ahead and seen what you would do and used you, etc. What difference does it really matter? Does one way make God evil or having less mercy on whom he will have mercy?

Again scripture doesn't say God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy based on His foreknowledge of the future actions of those men. At least not for Pharoah or Esau.

The Lord told David that IF he stayed in the city of Keilah the people of that city would hand him over to Saul. David did not stay in Keilah and Saul did not capture him. Scripture doesn’t say he designed them to fail, either. All them in conjunction says he’s a Just God that knows all and gives us a space for repentance, and “hardens the hearts” he knows will reject him.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
The Lord told David that IF he stayed in the city of Keilah the people of that city would hand him over to Saul. David did not stay in Keilah and Saul did not capture him. Scripture doesn’t say he designed them to fail, either. All them in conjunction says he’s a Just God that knows all and gives us a space for repentance, and “hardens the hearts” he knows will reject him.
If they were going to do it anyway, why would God need to harden their hearts to make them do what he wanted them to do? That's like God saying since you are a lost sinner, I think I'll harden your heart and make you a lost sinner to show my glory and perform my purpose.
No where in Exodus does God say he hardened Pharaoh's heart based on any act or attitude of Pharoah, present or future. Romans 9:17 says God did it to demonstrate his power and magnify his name.
 
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Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
If they were going to do it anyway, why would God need to harden their hearts to make them do what he wanted them to do? That's like God saying since you are a lost sinner, I think I'll harden your heart and make you a lost sinner to show my glory and perform my purpose.
Well, he did say he wouldn’t always strive with man. Absolutely, it’s about his glory.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
If they were going to do it anyway, why would God need to harden their hearts to make them do what he wanted them to do? That's like God saying since you are a lost sinner, I think I'll harden your heart and make you a lost sinner to show my glory and perform my purpose.
No where in Exodus does God say he hardened Pharaoh's heart based on any act or attitude of Pharoah, present or future. Romans 9:17 says God did it to demonstrate his power and magnify his name.
Pharaoh hardened his heart. Pharaoh continued to ignore God. A man that keeps rejecting God’s voice will be turned over to a reprobate mind and will believe a lie and be…..

However God chooses to show his power, he does so.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
One more Art - those in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that perish because they received not the truth that they might be saved - why did they perish?
 
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gemcgrew

Senior Member
One more Art - those in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that perish because they received not the truth that they might be saved - why did they perish?
Why do you continue to provide the very Scriptures that soundly refute your position?

I know why.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
One more Art - those in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that perish because they received not the truth that they might be saved - why did they perish?
Example of the opposite of God hardening one's heart, how did Saul become Paul? Who opened Paul's eyes so that he could see and become who he became?
Was Paul just randomly traveling down the road and suddenly decided to follow Jesus? Who gave Paul the vision to see? I'm sure Paul had heard the Gospel many times. What made him hear it this time?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
One more Art - those in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that perish because they received not the truth that they might be saved - why did they perish?
Let's use Paul for an example using Thessalonians.
Paul received not the love of the truth, that would save him.
So God will cause Paul to be greatly deceived, and he will believe these lies.

Now did God do this to Paul because he looked into the future and saw that Paul would never accept Him? Was at any point Paul turned over to a reprobate mind? Would God be just if he looked into the future and saw that Paul would never accept Him on his on and turn him over to a reprobate mine or did God open Paul's eyes so that he could see?

It's almost like you are saying that God looks into our futures and turns us all over to reprobates because he sees the we will never be His and he looks into the future and sees which ones of us will be His and then opens the eyes of only those.
Again if that is your definition of free will, how is that any better or more just than God choosing by some other plan?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Also and let's use me for this example. If God has looked into my future and knows that I will never except him, why would he need to turn me over to a reprobate mind?
That does not seem very just in the eyes of man. If I can never again change my mind. If my eyes will never be given another chance to see. If God never ever again leads me to His son.

The problem lies in us trying to make or see God as just. Man trying to justify God being just in all and everything is wrong. God is just. Trying to justify God's justice is not even possible for us to do even if we wanted to. But why would we even want to. Who am I to ask of God? What does God owe me?
This idea of God looking into our free will future and thinking He bases His decisions on that is a man made way of trying to justify God's justice. There is nothing in scripture that says God did this to Pharoah or Esau based on what their future actions would be. God did it because he is an all powerful God that does everything for His own glory. He doesn't need to be justified by humans as being just. He is just because He is God. We don't really need to even try and justify God's justice.
 
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Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
Why do you continue to provide the very Scriptures that soundly refute your position?

I know why.
It doesn’t refute my position. You’re going to have to overlook many scripture as the one below to support yours -

“While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation”

You’re looking at it as if they have perished because God didn’t allow them to receive it. That entire chapter tells us differently, they believed not because they had pleasure in unrighteousness, not because they had no choice.

He’s not unjust so works of good or bad doesn’t have anything to do with him being all knowing that’s also scripture.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
Also and let's use me for this example. If God has looked into my future and knows that I will never except him, why would he need to turn me over to a reprobate mind?
That does not seem very just in the eyes of man. If I can never again change my mind. If my eyes will never be given another chance to see. If God never ever again leads me to His son.

The problem lies in us trying to make or see God as just. Man trying to justify God being just in all and everything is wrong. God is just. Trying to justify God's justice is not even possible for us to do even if we wanted to. But why would we even want to. Who am I to ask of God? What does God owe me?
This idea of God looking into our free will future and thinking He bases His decisions on that is a man made way of trying to justify God's justice. There is nothing in scripture that says God did this to Pharoah or Esau based on what their future actions would be. God did it because he is an all powerful God that does everything for His own glory. He doesn't need to be justified by humans as being just. He is just because He is God. We don't really need to even try and justify God's justice.
We are not trying to make God anything. It’s written in black or red ink. There is nothing in scripture that tells you a rapture will take place either, but the event is described. By saying that there are those that are programmed to fail is saying he is an unjust God. You’re trying to prove he’s unjust but actually describing him unjust and trying to justify that by saying he can do what he wants. Yeah he can do what he wants, he does, but he’s not unjust with it. Refusing a man a choice is not just and he doesn’t do that, ever. No where is it written that a man was created to fail.

Looking at it scripturally with him being all knowing and already knowing the choices a man will make, and choosing those that he knows will serve him to use to show his power and accomplish his work is not unjust. It’s using broken tools. He’s not basing his decisions and works off your actions, he’s choosing to use your work and actions at his discretion. Every unrighteousness man isn’t and wasn’t ever used to do this.

That’s what they meant with questioning Jacob verses Esau. Neither of their works dictated anything to God on what he’s doing. He chose to use them. They thought he was unjust because no good or bad had been done yet. He will have mercy / compassion on whom he has mercy / compassion on - there’s no mercy for the evil doers, matter of fact he says this -

“Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;”

They were wanting mercy for Esau.

That reads exactly what I’ve been saying. - men refused, they didn’t listen - “choices”


“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient”
 
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