Were People Saved & Marked for Heaven BEFORE Christ's Death and Resurrection?

[Artfuldodger]

Perhaps God did look ahead at Pharoah, the twins, Israel's rejection, Paul's conversion, and salvation going to the Gentiles as revealed by Paul.
Maybe he didn't cause any of it. Maybe he did only use it all. I can see that. Yet, it still played out exactly the way God saw it before all time.

God still got the plan he wanted and really didn't have to predestine anything.

 

[RegularJoe]

So he makes you sin. That’s interesting

Sir ... with all respect, and then some : ), due...
that is your conclusion ....
permit me to simply go on the record to post that it is clearly not mine.

 

[RegularJoe]

...If you’re made to, is it really love?

You ask a reasonable question for which i am not qualified to answer.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Is it really love if the whole world is condemned but not everyone in the world has been reached? Think about it, God loved every one of those lost souls but then left it up to Paul and us to reach them.
How shall they hear without a preacher?

I'd rather let God elect all that is His. That seems more like love than having man reach them the ones He loves. But either way, God is still just.

 

[Spotlite]

In what way does God allowing through foreknowledge any different in the final outcome than ordaining it?
Let's say God did use the future knowledge of our free will and allow things to come based on that knowledge.
How is the final outcome any different than God actually ordaining it?

The only difference I see is the allowing plan does make God look more just than the actual ordaining plan.

Foreknowledge only means He knows, it does not mean anything other than knowledge.

Ordaining means to order.

God cannot tempt with evil, the flesh and the Spirit are contrary to one another - stating that God orders sin is contradictory to scripture.

It is not about making God more Just, it is recognizing His omniscience.

To narrow down your question -

In what way does God allowing through foreknowledge any different in the final outcome than ordaining it

Ordaining the "adulterous act" is contradictory to - God cannot tempt with evil, the flesh and the Spirit are contrary to one another.

Allowing it agrees with - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

"And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord."

WHY would it be displeasing to the Lord if he ordained it?

The difference is life / death / blessing / curse. It cost David a price.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Foreknowledge only means He knows, it does not mean anything other than knowledge.

Ordaining means to order.

God cannot tempt with evil, the flesh and the Spirit are contrary to one another - stating that God orders sin is contradictory to scripture.

It is not about making God more Just, it is recognizing His omniscience.

To narrow down your question -



Ordaining the "adulterous act" is contradictory to - God cannot tempt with evil, the flesh and the Spirit are contrary to one another.

Allowing it agrees with - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

"And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord."

WHY would it be displeasing to the Lord if he ordained it?

The difference is life / death / blessing / curse. It cost David a price.

I'm not disagreeing but you never answered my question. I'm saying perhaps God didn't ordain it. Maybe he just used what He foresaw to His advantage and therefore used it for His plan. If so wouldn't the end results be the same as if God did ordain it all.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Let's say that God foresaw Israel's rejection, He didn't cause it. It even angered Him. But could he not say before time, "Hey, I'll use what they did to allow Paul to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. Their trespasses will bring riches to the world."

 

[M80]

Let's say that God foresaw Israel's rejection, He didn't cause it. It even angered Him. But could he not say before time, "Hey, I'll use what they did to allow Paul to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. Their trespasses will bring riches to the world."

I agree with this because he knew Paul would submit to his will.

 

[gemcgrew]

I agree with this because he knew Paul would submit to his will.

Do you think Paul knew that his will would determine the council of God's own will? If so, why did he teach otherwise?

 

[Spotlite]

I'm not disagreeing but you never answered my question. I'm saying perhaps God didn't ordain it. Maybe he just used what He foresaw to His advantage and therefore used it for His plan. If so wouldn't the end results be the same as if God did ordain it all.

I would agree, yes on "used what He foresaw to His advantage and therefore used it for His plan"

Ordaining it, no.

Allowing, yes.

I would have a hard time thinking He would ordain sin. I might be splitting hairs with terminology, but for me the difference in ordaining and allowing is I might watch my Son to see if he reaches for his phone to text while driving, and I might not stop him from picking it up. But I am not going to tell him to pick it up.

Let's say that God foresaw Israel's rejection, He didn't cause it. It even angered Him. But could he not say before time, "Hey, I'll use what they did to allow Paul to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. Their trespasses will bring riches to the world."

I can agree here.

The difference is I believe it was already part of God`s plan to reach the Gentiles and the "reaching" of them was not circumstantial upon Israel`s obedience / disobedience.

Maybe the timing of the reaching the Gentiles was? Take your statement; "Hey, I'll use what they did to allow Paul to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles." and change it to "Hey, I`ll use what they did to allow Paul to go ahead and preach the Gospel to the Gentiles while I have Israel in time out"

The Church has not replaced Israel and God is not finished with Israel. Due to pride and disobedience, Israel were set aside for a season.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The difference is I believe it was already part of God`s plan to reach the Gentiles and the "reaching" of them was not circumstantial upon Israel`s obedience / disobedience.

It was circumstantial in that God had already fore seen it. He didn't already have another plan to reach the Gentiles. It's not like God says to himself "I'm gonna let Salvation go out to the Gentiles before the Jew's reject my plan." Oh, wait, I just foresaw Israel rejecting Jesus, let me let Paul put out salvation to the Gentiles then to make Israel jealous. In other words God didn't need to wait and see what Israel would do because He had already saw it.

Again it matters not whether God caused it or used it using His foreknowledge. It doesn't change the event(Israel's rejection) being used by God in the time frame that God foresaw it happening.

 

[Artfuldodger]

My point is does it really matter if God caused it or used foreseen knowledge to His advantage to present His plan? You can't say God did not use sin, even if he didn't cause sin. Pharoah, Judas, Israel's rejection. Not all of our teachers and lessons are from good and/or saints. So even if the Potter didn't make the clay for that purpose, he used His foreknowledge to see that He could use their sins.

Even if God didn't predestine the sin of Pharoah, Judas, Israel's rejection, isn't God using it, the same as using sin? He still used it all for His plan to happen using foreknowledge. It really doesn't change the time the event happened. It really doesn't change anything.

Foreseen Free will has the same eventual outcome as Predestination.

 

[Artfuldodger]

One other aspect to look at is the prophesy in the Old Testament. Plus the Types and Mirrors that would become future events.
Regardless of if God caused them or saw them, he still was able to use them to show future events. Causing or seeing didn't change whether the events in the future were gonna happen or not.

Let's start with the Flood and the Ark. The Ark is Jesus and represents Salvation. Can you think of any more?

Has fulfillment ever changed from prophesy? No it can't it has to happen just like it was seen. Therefore predestiny or free will matters not on the time of the future events happening. It all has to go down exactly as it was seen and foretold.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

there are so many 'mirrors' as you call them

Blood sacrifice in Genesis = Jesus death

all the feasts = future event fulfilled by Jesus, still 2 to be fulfilled

Jonah in fish = Jesus in ground 3 days and nights

there is a multitude of thing like this in the Bible.

Most people wouldn't believe the message in Gen 1:1 in the pictorial writing of the Jews.

 

[Artfuldodger]

there are so many 'mirrors' as you call them

Blood sacrifice in Genesis = Jesus death

all the feasts = future event fulfilled by Jesus, still 2 to be fulfilled

Jonah in fish = Jesus in ground 3 days and nights

there is a multitude of thing like this in the Bible.

Most people wouldn't believe the message in Gen 1:1 in the pictorial writing of the Jews.

I've heard people call prophetical types; mirrors. I didn't know it was the wrong terminology.

 

[Madman]

Let's start with the Flood and the Ark. The Ark is Jesus and represents Salvation. Can you think of any more?

Mary = the ark of the New covenant
Mary= the new Eve
Jesus= the new Adam
Serpent on staff = prefigures Christ’s crucifixion
Passover lamb= Prefigures the sacrifice of Christ

 

[hummerpoo]

I would agree, yes on "used what He foresaw to His advantage and therefore used it for His plan"

Ordaining it, no.

Allowing, yes.

I would have a hard time thinking He would ordain sin. I might be splitting hairs with terminology, but for me the difference in ordaining and allowing is I might watch my Son to see if he reaches for his phone to text while driving, and I might not stop him from picking it up. But I am not going to tell him to pick it up.



I can agree here.

The difference is I believe it was already part of God`s plan to reach the Gentiles and the "reaching" of them was not circumstantial upon Israel`s obedience / disobedience.

Maybe the timing of the reaching the Gentiles was? Take your statement; "Hey, I'll use what they did to allow Paul to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles." and change it to "Hey, I`ll use what they did to allow Paul to go ahead and preach the Gospel to the Gentiles while I have Israel in time out"

The Church has not replaced Israel and God is not finished with Israel. Due to pride and disobedience, Israel were set aside for a season.

for me the difference in ordaining and allowing is I might watch my Son to see if he reaches for his phone to text while driving, and I might not stop him from picking it up. But I am not going to tell him to pick it up.

That's because you are not God, and you do not know that the incoming text is from his girlfriend, the mother of your future grandchildren, who is about to end her life, and only he can prevent that.

In your hypothetical, God ordained it before creation. What you don't know, He does.

 

[hummerpoo]

Hypothetical:
You, the Cocktail Waitress, the Bartender, and the Bouncer allow your buddy, who is stumbling mumbling drunk, to get in his car and head home; resulting in two children loosing their young lives.

What is the difference between that and God allowing the same thing? Omniscience. God knows, in our hypothetical, that the resulting criminal charges will have the precedent setting outcome of jail time for all five involved parties. Further, the judgment, in the subsequent precedent setting civil suit, causes a major change in standard protocol for underwriting auto liability insurance throughout the nation making it impossible for anyone found guilty of DUI to ever legally drive again. Even further, the two children are bound for eternity praising God. As a result of these events 7000 lives are saved every year.

Privately (you, your God given conscience, and the Holy Spirit) with no possible social or peer pressure later, confront the question: does the distinction between allowed or ordained really matter. Those who see God as always just, always good, and always absolutely sovereign, lose nothing when they think of Him as ordaining all acts, temporal and eternal, because only their self image could be at risk, and for them the image of God is supreme. (Rm. 8:28-32).

 

[Spotlite]

That's because you are not God, and you do not know that the incoming text is from his girlfriend, the mother of your future grandchildren, who is about to end her life, and only he can prevent that.

In your hypothetical, God ordained it before creation.

Yes so God ordained the adultery of David and Bethsheba so He could be displeased.

God ordained the sin of man in Genesis so He could grieve.

God ordained the wickedness in Nineveh so He could repent of the evil He planned to do if they didn’t turn from their evil ways.

Makes sense to me.

I think God has enough knowledge to know in my hypothetical that if he’s going to ordain that, He already knows I’m going to take the phone away after he picks it up and prevent my son from reading a text while driving if I’m in the truck with him, so if He knows a text needs to get there, He is in enough control to put that text through to my phone.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Yes so God ordained the adultery of David and Bethsheba so He could be displeased.

God ordained the sin of man in Genesis so He could grieve.

God ordained the wickedness in Nineveh so He could repent of the evil He planned to do if they didn’t turn from their evil ways.

Makes sense to me.

I think God has enough knowledge to know in my hypothetical that if he’s going to ordain that, He already knows I’m going to take the phone away after he picks it up and prevent my son from reading a text while driving if I’m in the truck with him, so if He knows a text needs to get there, He is in enough control to put that text through to my phone.

Then your only choice is to to grab the phone as already foreseen. It matters not if God made you grab it or caused you to grab it. God still got the same results.