Is 'evil' a thing, the absence of good, or something else?

[NCHillbilly]

Yet being "good" based on love alone will still get you eternal torment if you don't accept Jesus - yes, that very Jesus who says you shouldn't be good out of fear.
Quite a contradiction there IMHO. The only way that the church (or any religion) can really teach that you should be good out of love is to take punishment off the table.

So it seems to me that people with no fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife - or the hope of a reward whether here on earth or in the afterlife - are the only people best motivated to do good just for the sake of doing good. Atheists who devote their life to good works would be tossed into the eternal pit of fire along with the billions of people who don't accept Jesus, according to the Christian church. That doesn't seem right or fair to me.

My main gripe with the Christian religion has always been this.

God created man in his own image, then set him up for failure. The default position for man is burning in a fiery eternal torment unless he actively seeks repentance for acting exactly like God programmed him to act. Regardless of whether he is a very good man, or an evil man. God comes close to being a kid with a magnifying glass and an anthill on a sunny day in this scenario.

 

[hummerpoo]

Yet being "good" based on love alone will still get you eternal torment if you don't accept Jesus - yes, that very Jesus who says you shouldn't be good out of fear.
Quite a contradiction there IMHO. The only way that the church (or any religion) can really teach that you should be good out of love is to take punishment off the table.

So it seems to me that people with no fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife - or the hope of a reward whether here on earth or in the afterlife - are the only people best motivated to do good just for the sake of doing good. Atheists who devote their life to good works would be tossed into the eternal pit of fire along with the billions of people who don't accept Jesus, according to the Christian church. That doesn't seem right or fair to me.

The love that concerns neither fear (terror) nor reward (accolade) is grounded in reverential awe of The Holy God.

 

[RegularJoe]

Here is my view of what I think the bible says, and you will never see it anywhere else. There is a he11. It is not for unbelievers. It is for those whom have been given eternal life and have been deceived by the imposter Christ, called the antichrist. Those take the mark. It is those whom, in revelation, are condemned to he11. Just like the fallen angels in the bible... they are eternal beings. Something has to be done with them. Of them it is said, better to have never been born. Those non eternal humans will simply be no more in death. Now, as to whom those are that take the mark, are deceived from the one whom stole Jesus identity... that would be a particular group whom claims to be Christian. Many will say to me on that day.....What needs to be pondered is whether this is a future event.... or a current Jesus belief system? Recall that the imposter Christ will claim to be God.... One belief system already has their Jesus claiming to be God.

1g - You have developed the above view thru examining the protestant Bible cover to cover, correct?

 

[oldfella1962]

The love that concerns neither fear (terror) nor reward (accolade) is grounded in reverential awe of The Holy God.

Call me skeptical but I think that once you are aware that eternal torment is always on the table, that fear will always be in the back of your mind - in your subconscious - and influence your "love".

 

[oldfella1962]

1g - You have developed the above view thru examining the protestant Bible cover to cover, correct?

he very well may have. I would venture to say that all the different denominations and schools of thought that make up Christianity developed from people that were very familiar with the same bible everyone else reads. Everyone has a slightly different view and interpretation of what is written. But being a very lengthy and often contradictory book, that would be expected.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The love that concerns neither fear (terror) nor reward (accolade) is grounded in reverential awe of The Holy God.

I would agree but why are children taught this differently than that in Christian households? I was taught the concept of fear and rewards through Christianity as far back as I can remember concerning God and Christianity.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I guess maybe Jehovah Witnesses show love more for the right reasons than most other denominations. They don't have a fear of He11 or even the reward of Heaven.
Just the reward of eternal life from death.

 

[hummerpoo]

Call me skeptical but I think that once you are aware that eternal torment is always on the table, that fear will always be in the back of your mind - in your subconscious - and influence your "love".

With regeneration comes reverential awe, with reverential awe comes faith. Faith is not skeptical of God's power.

 

[hummerpoo]

I would agree but why are children taught this differently than that in Christian household? I was taught the concept of fear and rewards through Christianity as far back as I can remember concerning God and Christianity.

You are asking me to demonstrate my omniscience.
__________ There it is.

 

[Artfuldodger]

With regeneration comes reverential awe, with reverential awe comes faith. Faith is not skeptical of God's power.

Would you say that regeneration brings the awareness of why to be good? Therefore Christian families who teach kids to be good out of fear and rewards haven't been regenerated?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Reading this;
"The unifying problem with all of these techniques is that they won’t bring lasting change to anyone. As a parent, I do set some boundaries in place and let my kids know about the consequences of their disobedience. I also reward them at times when I see them doing something positive and I may have bribed them at times in a tough spot. But I don’t believe fear, manipulation, rewards, guilt or shame are going to change anyone’s heart."

Yet how does one teach this to a child who has not yet had a regeneration?

 

[hummerpoo]

Would you say that regeneration brings the awareness of why to be good? Therefore Christian families who teach kids to be good out of fear and rewards haven't been regenerated?

I said the former. I did not say the latter.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Is 'evil'
(1) a 'thing,'
(2) simply the absence of 'good,' or
(3) something entirely different than "(1)" or "(2)"
??????
Many thanks.

See C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

From what I see, there are good folks and evil folks, and going to church doesn't have much sway either way.

From the Christian perspective that's not an accurate presentation of what's taught in scripture. That framework says there are the holy and Un-holy I know a lot of good folks, but I ain't never met a holy one, not even in the church. None-the-less, that's the appropriate context for that religion.

 

[Artfuldodger]

There is one aspect that if you love Jesus, you will keep his commandments. Another concept is fruit of the Spirit. Maybe between our spirit and the Spirit, we will show our Love more than having just our spirit.

 

[oldfella1962]

I guess maybe Jehovah Witnesses show love more for the right reasons than most other denominations. They don't have a fear of He11 or even the reward of Heaven.
Just the reward of eternal life from death.

okay I am totally confused by that last sentence. Are you saying an eternal life that is just like the actual life here on earth? Wouldn't they have to die first to get this "eternal life" and then they would be like a zombie and freak people out. I don't get what you're saying here.

 

[Artfuldodger]

okay I am totally confused by that last sentence. Are you saying an eternal life that is just like the actual life here on earth? Wouldn't they have to die first to get this "eternal life" and then they would be like a zombie and freak people out. I don't get what you're saying here.

The Bible says that if you believe in Jesus, you will have everlasting life. Thus the opposite would be everlasting death. I'm not exactly sure where they believe that life will be or in what physical state they will be in. I don't think they believe it will be in Heaven though for most of them.
The main point was that they are Christians trying to do good for the love of God. I guess after thinking about it though they are doing it for the reward of eternal life. But they aren't doing it out of fear of He11. It could be from the fear of everlasting death though.

 

[oldfella1962]

The Bible says that if you believe in Jesus, you will have everlasting life. Thus the opposite would be everlasting death. I'm not exactly sure where they believe that life will be or in what physical state they will be in. I don't think they believe it will be in Heaven though for most of them.
The main point was that they are Christians trying to do good for the love of God. I guess after thinking about it though they are doing it for the reward of eternal life. But they aren't doing it out of fear of He11. It could be from the fear of everlasting death though.

everlasting death (without the torment of course) shouldn't scare anyone since if you're truly dead, you wouldn't be conscious to even notice that you are dead.

 

[Artfuldodger]

everlasting death (without the torment of course) shouldn't scare anyone since if you're truly dead, you wouldn't be conscious to even notice that you are dead.

True, but some folks who believe you die when you die still fear death.

 

[oldfella1962]

True, but some folks who believe you die when you die still fear death.

maybe it's the concept of the complete and final unknown. When I think about I've been alive for my entire life so it's hard to imagine not existing - having no consciousness. Like I've said before, when I die I'll go back to doing what I did before I was born - a whole lot of nothing.