Do you full length or neck size?

[Jester896]

Maybe we are not using the same terminology.
Rosewood

I am not sure.
I just went in my shop to test what the 2 of you are saying. I used my Co-Ax, Winchester .243 cases, an RCBS standard F/L sizing die and the Hornady Comparator tool with the D insert.

the fired case measured 1.6325

I readjusted the die so that it wasn't touching the shellplate. I didn't run a feeler gauge under it to check the actual gap. I will say I ran it down until it touched then backed it up about 1/16th turn. Then I waxed the case and ran it, it now measures 1.637. That certainly didn't bump the shoulders back .001-.003. I screwed it in 1/16th turn, slight contact with the shellplate, still measures the same. I screwed it down another 1/8th turn and there was a little cam over. I ran the case again and it measures 1.627. It had to have a little cam over to move the shoulders back .004 from the original location. If it does not come into contact with the shell plate it wouldn't push the shoulder back. My Rock Chucker works in the same fashion for me.

It looks like the 1/8th turn should have been another 1/16 instead and I may have had the .002 I was looking for. There still would have been a slight cam over though.

Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong?

 

[rmp]

I have my 308 Winchester dies out but very few Norma cases so went back to the Lapua.

Just now, using a Redding FL sizer, I ran the die down to make contact with the shell holder and backed off the slightest amount. It gave me a .003” bump. Couldn’t have done any better on purpose. Using another piece of fired brass in the Whidden bushing die, I bumped the shoulder .003” and can get a .013” feeler gauge between the base of the die and shell holder.

I’ll try an RCBS too but don’t have many for shouldered cartridges aside from Weatherby with the double radius. Most is Redding. It might be a while digging out brass. I will try Hornady as well in case the difference is in the dies.

Hope it helps a bit.

 

[Jester896]

It's been my past experiences that my Redding dies work like the RCBS when I used them in my Rock Chucker but it might be a little different it the Co-Ax. Seems like there is a little less cam over and also the same way in the old JR press I had. The die has always touched if not more.

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John set his die up the same way that I did it just required the die to touch the shellplate to get what I wanted. He is just setting up one of his dies. I wonder what the differences between them and standards from RCBS or any of the others. The Redding instructions tell you to turn the die in until it makes contact with the shell holder. We know this isn't necessary for bumping shoulders back on brass fired in your gun.

This is the way I have always set up my dies for stuff I fire in my guns. I admit Ispend more time bumping shoulders back to SAAMI 0 but I haven't forgotten how to do it this way either

 

[rmp]

I tried several dies from multiple brands and it appears to be random aside from the Whidden and Redding so far.

Whidden 6.5x47L with Lapua brass is .004” bump and at .008” or a bit more clearance.

Redding .243 AI with Lapua brass is .002” bump and can get a .003” feeler gauge in.

Hornady .260 REM with Remington brass required the slightest cam-over at .004”

Hornady 243 Win with Remington brass, touching the slightest amount and back off gave .003” bump.

RCBS 7Mag with Remington brass required the slight cam over.

RCBS 7RUM with Remington brass was .002” bump with a .0015” feeler gauge fitting but not a .003”. (My .002” is missing)

I stand corrected. Memory isn’t what it used to be. Guess because of using Redding and Whidden most often and Redding being the majority of my dies, didn’t remember hitting the shell holder with any others. Seems as though Hornady and RCBS can be hit or miss.

 

[rosewood]

I am guessing we are using different type of dies. I use Lee, guessing u use more expensive dies. It also depends on how tight your chamber is, a loose chamber will have u bumping shoulder back further when die touches shellplate than a toghter chamber.

We have 3 enfield 303 rifles, all have lot of headspace. I turn die down until it just touches the shoulder, then tighten a touch and check to see if it chamber in the tightest chamber rifle. I continue tightening in die until the case chambers. Then I use that setting for loading for all 3 rifles. The die is not touching the shellplate. This reduces working the brass and the chance of head separation from the excessive headspace.

Rosewood

 

[rmp]

I should have included Whidden’s shop has cut 2 chambers for me and I have his corresponding dies.

To summarize, I bump shoulders with a FL size die. I don’t neck size anything. ??

 

[Jester896]

I think most of my dies are Redding as well. My goal wasn't to correct anyone, it was more to point out different results people get with the same type of equipment.

That .243 case also measured +.009 in my Mo's gauge. It was just OF brass laying around. It could be more hardened than what you are using. The FC case I did first was way different than the Winchester result. We have made a few of the Mo's for special things we do like 6.5WSM and a couple of others with L E Wilson case gauges and the mic thimble from a Mo's with the Go Gauge we used for the chamber. They are very similar to John's. L E Wilson makes one too but I don't see it being as accurate as Mo's or John's. I have had to fix a couple of the RCBS ones that I have too.

I am moving toward F/L type-S for anything new I pick up getting away from the body die and S-type neck sizers to cut down on steps

 

[rosewood]

Just watched the video, that is exactly what I was trying to explain.

Note he discussed the case growing. Most of the growing isn't when firing, it is when resizing and neck only sizing using the Lee collet neck sizer doesn't grow the case, so the case last longer and needs trimming less frequently. That being said the serious competitors are more worried about about accuracy instead of case life.

Rosewood

 

[rosewood]

Manufacturer instructions typically tell u to touch shell plate, I know lee does and for any straight wall, u want to do that. Guessing they are wanting you to "full length" to shell plate to insure clambering in any Saami spec chamber.

 

[Jester896]

Just watched the video, that is exactly what I was trying to explain.

Note he discussed the case growing. Most of the growing isn't when firing, it is when resizing and neck only sizing using the Lee collet neck sizer doesn't grow the case, so the case last longer and needs trimming less frequently. That being said the serious competitors are more worried about about accuracy instead of case life.

the case won't grow once your die is set up for that gun. I just don't lock my dies down because I size so much back to SAAMI to fit in all guns for my buddy's shop.

Manufacturer instructions typically tell u to touch shell plate, I know lee does and for any straight wall, u want to do that. Guessing they are wanting you to "full length" to shell plate to insure clambering in any SAAMI spec chamber.

exactly...they want all novice loaders to be easily successful. They don't generally do what we are talking about doing.

 

[Jester896]

That being said the serious competitors are more worried about about accuracy instead of case life.

Rosewood

I think they may be more concerned about galling their lug surfaces and altering the headspace on the rifle by making certain the bolt closes smoothly on the round...but that is just my opinion.

 

[rmp]

it was more to point out different results people get with the same type of equipment.

Lots of variables involved before reloading equipment comes into play. I was working with 3 Remington 700 7mags some years ago and the only thing consistent with those chambers was the inconsistencies.

 

[BriarPatch99]

I think the correct term is "partially full length sizing "...but I have been told that the term does not exist.... But that what is happening when you use a full length dies to move shoulders back only a few thousands.

I think the problem lays with the fact that not all dies match every chamber or is it that every chamber does not match every die ... that old +/- factor gets involved more often than folks imagine...

Be like saying all children are the same.... nope don't happen ...

My solution it to have a set(or more) of dies for each rifle ... my dies(sizing)get set to the rifle ... the seater dies get adjusted for the bullets ...but the sizer stays set once figured out ....

 

[Jester896]

John's dies have different inside dimensions than other mfgs.

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[Jester896]

I think the correct term is "partially full length sizing "...but I have been told that the term does not exist.... But that what is happening when you use a full length dies to move shoulders back only a few thousands.

That is a good description. You use a F/L sizer die to to minimally size the brass. Like Eric says, "It will be more consistent." To completely resize the brass would be more like using the instructions that came with the die.

like rmp and rosewood said...the only thing consistent in the 7mms or .303s were the inconsistencies. Factory rifle chambers vary a great deal. The chambers that Eric and others uses aren't. Custom rifle chambers tend to be SAAMI spec bodies with the possible exception of neck clearance and/or lead. When he resizes his body probably is closer to a true F/L resize since his chamber is most likely a 0 SAAMI spec on the case body.

We are pretty much throwing SAAMI out of the window in my view when you resize for the rifle. The dies are made to F/L back to SAAMI yet we use them differently. We are making our inconsistent factory rifles preform closer to custom by using these methods.

Take the Winchester brass I sized for example. My Mo's Gauge told me the case was +.009 deeper than SAAMI spec and that would mean everything was +.009. The shoulders, the COAL, and the lead. You could let your necks get +.009 longer than the SAMMI spec, seat your bullet out +.009 longer as well possibly... IMO. It was custom resized to to the rifles spec. There is a good chance that will not work in my .243. And if I had a body die I could custom fit that loaded round to bump the shoulders back so it would be .002 under that rifle's chamber. There is something to be said for having lots of different equipment. You are less limited in what you can accomplish.

 

[rosewood]

Up until yesterday, I really didn't know much about bushing dies. Now I know the value of them. Still too cheap to purchase them though. I don't plan on shooting long rifle competitively and am too cheap. I have at least 2 rifles that shoot 1/2 MOA with my Lee dies (a Savage 110 in 7 mag and 12 in 22-250, both factory). I think I neck sized them too boot.

Rosewood

 

[bullethead]

The difference in the chambers of individual rifles can mean the difference in the amount of cam-over or no cam-over that may or may not be needed. A more generous chamber will allow the case to enlarge enough where cam over may not be needed to set the shoulder back. A different case from a different chamber may not even be touched by the setting of that same die that was adjusted to the first case.
All of you gentlemen are right on individual findings, the chamber sizes and die tolerances, even the shell plate dimensions can all be factors that come into play.

 

[BriarPatch99]

All of you gentlemen are right on individual findings, the chamber sizes and die tolerances, even the shell plate dimensions can all be factors that come into play.

This is the key...tolerances ... tool wear ... and the precision which those tools are used...

Stack tolerances on either end +/- you end up with a chamber too large or small for the die you have ....Same stack tolerances stack on a die means it does not fit "perfect" ...

Those guys with the big $$$$$ can come near getting a "more perfect" fit between their chambers and dies ...

Us small $$ folks have to make the best of what we can afford ....

 

[Jester896]

Up until yesterday, I really didn't know much about bushing dies. Now I know the value of them. Still too cheap to purchase them though. I don't plan on shooting long rifle competitively and am too cheap. I have at least 2 rifles that shoot 1/2 MOA with my Lee dies (a Savage 110 in 7 mag and 12 in 22-250, both factory). I think I neck sized them too boot.

Rosewood

I think normal dies work out to somewhere around .003-.005 of neck tension. You may be able to polish a sizing button down to get a little less. The advantage is with the S Type is you can adjust it closer to where you want it

Those guys with the big $$$$$ can come near getting a "more perfect" fit between their chambers and dies ...

I have been called a lot of things...big $$$$...was never one of them

 

[rmp]

I think normal dies work out to somewhere around .003-.005 of neck tension. You may be able to polish a sizing button down to get a little less.

Personally, I wouldn’t mess with the expander. Seems like reducing the size would increase tension. It does if I remove the expander and use just the decap assembly in my dies.
With some companies, if you send your die in, they’ll hone the neck sizing area larger to decrease tension. At least Forster used to and I believe Redding will.

I have been called a lot of things...big $$$$...was never one of them

Same!