Adam's rib - quick question for Biblical literalists

Ruger#3

RAMBLIN ADMIN
Staff member
I actually don't want or expect any sort of diety to do anything for me. I am curious to the contradictory verses which the beleivers are left to defend or deflect.

In you're opinion since you mentioned that your God hardens hearts at and by his will, do you also think that man has free will?

I don’t have defend or deflect anything it’s a very personal choice. Your betting your soul.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
I don’t have defend or deflect anything it’s a very personal choice. Your betting your soul.
But twice now you have not answered whether or not you think there is Free Will since you also told us that God hardens hearts by his Will.

We are all betting our souls IF in fact our souls actually do go "somewhere" after death.
With over 10,000 gods I just don't have the time to cater to them all in the hopes I cover all of the bases.
You are putting a dollar down on one scratch off ticket and hoping to win the big prize.
 

Ruger#3

RAMBLIN ADMIN
Staff member
But twice now you have not answered whether or not you think there is Free Will since you also told us that God hardens hearts by his Will.

We are all betting our souls IF in fact our souls actually do go "somewhere" after death.
With over 10,000 gods I just don't have the time to cater to them all in the hopes I cover all of the bases.
You are putting a dollar down on one scratch off ticket and hoping to win the big prize.

Maybe this will bring clarity to how I believe. I enjoy discussions with the atheist here. Don’t believe it’s my place to brow beat anyone. I fulfill my role by sharing the word and my testimony of why I believe. I pray for them. I fulfill my role in this way. It’s not a legal debate, it’s much more personal.

To respectfully answer you, disrespect God at your peril.

And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Maybe this will bring clarity to how I believe. I enjoy discussions with the atheist here. Don’t believe it’s my place to brow beat anyone. I fulfill my role by sharing the word and my testimony of why I believe. I pray for them. I fulfill my role in this way. It’s not a legal debate, it’s much more personal.

To respectfully answer you, disrespect God at your peril.

And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.
Clarity would be a direct answer about Free Will.
 

Ruger#3

RAMBLIN ADMIN
Staff member
Clarity would be a direct answer about Free Will.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Maybe this will bring clarity to how I believe. I enjoy discussions with the atheist here. Don’t believe it’s my place to brow beat anyone. I fulfill my role by sharing the word and my testimony of why I believe. I pray for them. I fulfill my role in this way. It’s not a legal debate, it’s much more personal.

To respectfully answer you, disrespect God at your peril.

And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.
I enjoy discussions with the atheist here. Don’t believe it’s my place to brow beat anyone. I fulfill my role by sharing the word and my testimony of why I believe. I pray for them. I fulfill my role in this way. It’s not a legal debate, it’s much more personal.
^ (y)
Alot of times we try to nail down believers to a concrete answer. Which sometimes is alot like herding cats. We do appreciate your honest participation.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
I honestly appreciate your beliefs and passion.
But statements like the above just do not pan out for everyone in the real world. There are awful awful awful things that happen to people right up until they are dead. There is no way out, no reprieve, no save, not stopping it before it is more than they can bear.
If that was not the case I would be more sympathetic to the sales pitches.
 
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Ruger#3

RAMBLIN ADMIN
Staff member
I honestly appreciate your beliefs and passion.
But statements like the above just do not pan out for everyone in the real world. There are awful awful awful things that happen to people right up until they are dead. There is no way out, no reprieve, no save, not stopping it before it is more than they can bear.
If that was not the case I would be more sympathetic to the sales pitches.

First, I’m not try to sell you anything, I’m not that guy. Simply answering your questions as best I can.

Christianity is based on faith, there is evidence of God all about but without faith one is blind to it.

”Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”

“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
 

Ruger#3

RAMBLIN ADMIN
Staff member
^ (y)
Alot of times we try to nail down believers to a concrete answer. Which sometimes is alot like herding cats. We do appreciate your honest participation.

Walt, I enjoy our conversations. I’m not salesmen, I’m hopeful messenger.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
First, I’m not try to sell you anything, I’m not that guy. Simply answering your questions as best I can.

Christianity is based on faith, there is evidence of God all about but without faith one is blind to it.

”Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”

“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
I understand that and don't take it personally. I have found that the results often don't match the claims because both pro and con are not always taken into consideration when statements are made.

Almost every religion makes claims about faith, or true believers, or only the chosen being able to "see" whether it be their God in every day life or truly understand their religion. All others are blind. I get it. I don't buy it, but I get the need to make believers feel unique. What you see as the results of the Christian God all around you others are just as sure that you are mistaken and blinded to not seeing their God in those very same things. I just cannot see where either is more "right" than the other. All of the followers use their own scripture as a source to back up their scripture because it doesn't hold water anywhere else outside of scripture. If any of it was unique where one set of faithful believers in one religion prospered over all the rest I would be the first to say that there is something to it. But so far all make the same claims and all are playing at the same level on the same field.
I absolutely do not think less of anyone for their beliefs but when the claims of beliefs are truths are made I ask for proof. When scripture contradicts itself I ask for clarity. When someone tells me that a God chooses who will see and who he will blind and then also touts Free Will I ask for their own personal opinion how both can be true. When a person answers that like Biden's Press Secretary with everything but addressing it directly I take it that they don't want to admit that something might not be right and would rather avoid the honest answer.

I do appreciate your input and taking the time to converse. Thanks.
 

Ruger#3

RAMBLIN ADMIN
Staff member
I understand that and don't take it personally. I have found that the results often don't match the claims because both pro and con are not always taken into consideration when statements are made.

Almost every religion makes claims about faith, or true believers, or only the chosen being able to "see" whether it be their God in every day life or truly understand their religion. All others are blind. I get it. I don't buy it, but I get the need to make believers feel unique. What you see as the results of the Christian God all around you others are just as sure that you are mistaken and blinded to not seeing their God in those very same things. I just cannot see where either is more "right" than the other. All of the followers use their own scripture as a source to back up their scripture because it doesn't hold water anywhere else outside of scripture. If any of it was unique where one set of faithful believers in one religion prospered over all the rest I would be the first to say that there is something to it. But so far all make the same claims and all are playing at the same level on the same field.
I absolutely do not think less of anyone for their beliefs but when the claims of beliefs are truths are made I ask for proof. When scripture contradicts itself I ask for clarity. When someone tells me that a God chooses who will see and who he will blind and then also touts Free Will I ask for their own personal opinion how both can be true. When a person answers that like Biden's Press Secretary with everything but addressing it directly I take it that they don't want to admit that something might not be right and would rather avoid the honest answer.

I do appreciate your input and taking the time to converse. Thanks.

Your welcome.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
"All of the followers use their own scripture as a source to back up their scripture because it doesn't hold water anywhere else outside of scripture. If any of it was unique where one set of faithful believers in one religion prospered over all the rest I would be the first to say that there is something to it. But so far all make the same claims and all are playing at the same level on the same field." - Bullethead

Pretty much my take on religion in general. Most of them (the major established religions for sure) make miraculous/supernatural claims and so far ZERO miracles can be proved (to anybody but the followers of that religion) but many of the claims can be disproved beyond a shadow of a doubt. I don't consider any single religion any better than any other religion. All religions make claims with the only "evidence" to the claims being the religion itself. :confused: There is truly "nothing new under the sun" - as the Bible says - because Christianity uses myths, fables, legends and concepts from earlier religions and secular Greek philosophy.

As long as any religion doesn't break any laws - or consider their religion above the law - people can believe whatever they want. That said here is something that grinds my gears :mad: That is the "RELIGIOUS EXEMPTION" for not getting vaccinations. Sorry but your god's protection does not keep your children from getting sick and infecting my children. Your god's protection does not keep you from infecting me. If you don't understand germ theory and won't get your kids the same vaccinations that my kids have to get, they cannot attend my kid's school. Homeschool them or send them to a religious school with other unvaccinated kids. THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT COVID! It applies to any and all mandated health protections. "God will protect me" shouldn't be an excuse for not wearing seatbelts, running with scissors, refusing a blood transfusion for your child, etc. etc.
 

NE GA Pappy

Mr. Pappy
" If you don't understand germ theory and won't get your kids the same vaccinations that my kids have to get, they cannot attend my kid's school. Homeschool them or send them to a religious school with other unvaccinated kids. THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT COVID! It applies to any and all mandated health protections. "God will protect me" shouldn't be an excuse for not wearing seatbelts, running with scissors, refusing a blood transfusion for your child, etc. etc.

so, you are for forcing people to go against their personal belief system? Seems reasonable to me. Not.

Do you really think that me not wearing a seat belt is endangering you or your child? That not getting a blood transfusion somehow is a danger to your health?

Not even the super liberal democrats want to force blood transfusions on folks
 

brutally honest

Senior Member
That said here is something that grinds my gears :mad: That is the "RELIGIOUS EXEMPTION" for not getting vaccinations. Sorry but your god's protection does not keep your children from getting sick and infecting my children. Your god's protection does not keep you from infecting me. If you don't understand germ theory and won't get your kids the same vaccinations that my kids have to get, they cannot attend my kid's school. Homeschool them or send them to a religious school with other unvaccinated kids. THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT COVID! It applies to any and all mandated health protections. "God will protect me" shouldn't be an excuse for not wearing seatbelts, running with scissors, refusing a blood transfusion for your child, etc. etc.

You seem to have as much faith in government and science as many religious people do in their god. If the last two years has taught us anything, it's that government and science are untrustworthy.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
You seem to have as much faith in government and science as many religious people do in their god. If the last two years has taught us anything, it's that government and science are untrustworthy.

That's why I said this is not about COVID. Until COVID came along pretty much everyone had no problem with getting their kids (or themselves) vaccinated against various diseases. Your kids could not go to school without getting these vaccinations. Apparently, scientists & doctors figured out that these vaccinations were a cheap & effective way to keep kids healthy. So if your religious beliefs keep you from getting your kids vaccinated - even though germs are just germs and don't respect your religious beliefs - should they be allowed to attend a public school? What makes your kid so special? Now if you can PROVE that your god will keep your kid germ free or at least keep the germs from infecting my kid, show me the proof.

Call me crazy but when religion starts affecting reality in a dangerous way that's infringing on my kid's right to be healthy. That's all I'm saying.

As for the blood transfusion (and other potentially life extending procedures) if your religion forbids them and your sickly kid dies you are evil and/or a mental deficient. You value fantasy & superstition over your own child's life. Fair enough?

Yes, government & science can be untrustworthy but most of the time science is very trustworthy and reliable. Statistically prayer is a coin toss in its chance of effectiveness. Would you rather have the best trained & experienced doctors in your corner or the best trained & experienced preachers? Do you want the best scientists planning a manned space mission, or should we just shoot the rocket up and organize a prayer circle and see how it works out? I guess it all depends on your worldview.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
so, you are for forcing people to go against their personal belief system? Seems reasonable to me. Not.

Do you really think that me not wearing a seat belt is endangering you or your child? That not getting a blood transfusion somehow is a danger to your health?

Not even the super liberal democrats want to force blood transfusions on folks

You can follow your belief system all you want if it doesn't negatively affect other people or violate the law. Apparently people smarter than you or me figured out that wearing a seatbelt will benefit everyone on the road, and made it a law. You not letting your kid get a life saving blood transfusion endangers the life of a child. If you don't want to get one that's fine, but why kill your child? That's what I'm saying about religion not staying in its lane.
 

brutally honest

Senior Member
That's why I said this is not about COVID. Until COVID came along pretty much everyone had no problem with getting their kids (or themselves) vaccinated against various diseases. Your kids could not go to school without getting these vaccinations.

I’ve never heard of anyone refusing to get MMR or smallpox vaccines for any reason, COVID or otherwise. Maybe they’re out there. If so, they’re nuts.
 
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