God Does Not Predestinate Any Particular Person To Be Saved Or Lost

BanjoPicker

Senior Member
SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD (ROM. 9:1-24)

By sovereignty means that God is supreme in power and that He has absolute dominion over all creations. Some teach that because God is sovereign that He chooses to Lord it over all men as He pleases regardless of any just rights they might have and that He wills to save some and da-mn others solely because of His own choice, but as we have seen, God is not that kind of being. As far as power is concerned, He could destroy free moral agents regardless of their sin or holiness, but He cannot do this and be just and holy Himself. Therefore, since His character is absolutely holy and just and impeachable, He will not use His power except for the highest good of all creations. He does not even desire to misuse His power for He is righteous in all His ways.

God's sovereignty is real, but He does not choose to use it to hurt anyone. He gives all FREE MORAL AGENTS the right of CHOICE of RIGHT and WRONG IN ALL MATTERS and He holds THEM RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR CHOICE. He is creator and Lord of all, but He is kind, merciful, just, loving, good, and compassionate towards all, and He does not will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:8; 1 Tim. 2:4, 5). The following passages teach the sovereignty of God, but not one of them teaches that He misuses, His authority in any realm. He is consecrated to the highest good of all and obligates Himself to bless all men alike that come to Him through Jesus Christ. Note the Sovereignty of God is stated in Gen. 14:18-20; 24:3; Ex. 9:29; 15:18; Deut. 4:29; 10:14; 1 Chron. 29:11, 12; Ps. 89:11; Dan. 2:20, 21; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 4:11; 11:15.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Q:
“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭64‬-‭65‬ ‭KJV‬‬
A: looks like what I stand on is correct. He knew from the beginning “who” would “believe”. Therefore he knows who will believe and who will not. God doesn’t force one to believe or not. Don’t know why y’all make things so difficult.
If God knew from the beginning the decisions of free moral agents then how can those free moral agents choose anything different that what God has already seen?
If I go to my closet and choose my red shirt over my blue shirt then God has already seen my election. How can I, at that point, choose my blue shirt?
All I'm saying is it's really the same thing. God gets His plan and glory done regardless of if he foresees or fore causes.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Omnipotence means God is all-powerful.
Omniscience means God is all-knowing.

I think this is very important, which of those came first? If God fore knew first then all his actions of power would be based on what he foresaw. This is what some on here are saying. That God foreknew first and chose vessels of good or bad based on His foreknowledge. In other words His foreknowledge influenced his power. I guess that's possible.
 

M80

Useles Billy’s Spiritual Counselor
B
If God knew from the beginning the decisions of free moral agents then how can those free moral agents choose anything different that what God has already seen?
If I go to my closet and choose my red shirt over my blue shirt then God has already seen my election. How can I, at that point, choose my blue shirt?
All I'm saying is it's really the same thing. God gets His plan and glory done regardless of if he foresees or fore causes.
Because you chose the blue shirt second. He knows our heart before we ever pray. He knows our needs before we ask. The Bible says ye have not for you ask not. We miss a lot because we don’t pray and ask. He knows if we prayed for something before the foundations of the earth also.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
B

Because you chose the blue shirt second. He knows our heart before we ever pray. He knows our needs before we ask. The Bible says ye have not for you ask not. We miss a lot because we don’t pray and ask. He knows if we prayed for something before the foundations of the earth also.
Maybe if I ask it more simple. If God chooses vessels of wrath or honor based on foreknowledge, can either of those type of vessels change to another form, in the future, using free will?

Even easier, can a man God has already foreseen to not accept Him use his free will to choose God in the future?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Here is another example as seen from a Free Will perspective.
God using His foreknowledge chose Israel as a nation to bring salvation to the world by seeing that Israel would turn against Him. Thus he used this foreknowledge by having His son born as a Jew.
Further knowing beforehand that they would not believe he was the Messiah. Therefore allowing salvation to flow to the Gentiles by letting them be grafted into the nation that God chose to begin with for this very purpose.

I can really sorta see it all going down by foreknowledge. But at the same time, God had Omnipotence along with His Omniscience.
The mystery to us, regardless of what camp we are in is how does God separate those two traits to perform what He did and does?

When you really think about it His foreknowledge would have to be a part of His power. His every decision would have to be based on his foreknowledge. His foreknowledge would have to influence His power.
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
Not continuing to argue bud, there are 3 of you that are “right” regardless. Carry on….I’m loading my hunting stuff for tomorrow. :cheers:
is it possible that there are three of us that think first of God? I suspect thAt the are many more.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
is it possible that there are three of us that think first of God? I suspect thAt the are many more.

1. What a humble servant - how on earth did you conclude that you’re one of the 3 right ones :bounce:

2. The assumption is there are those aren’t thinking of God first. I haven’t seen that from anyone.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD (ROM. 9:1-24)

By sovereignty means that God is supreme in power and that He has absolute dominion over all creations. Some teach that because God is sovereign that He chooses to Lord it over all men as He pleases regardless of any just rights they might have and that He wills to save some and da-mn others solely because of His own choice, but as we have seen, God is not that kind of being.
I haven't seen it.
I can't see it.
I am not free to see it.

God does not cause me to demean Him.

I do see this...

"predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

God works the will of man for His own purpose.

God is sovereign. Man is not free.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I think many folks see God as a "meany" if He is sovereign so they can't picture God as a Potter that would make vessels of wrath. Paul knew many of us would think that and thus why he said what he did about the matter in Romans 9 and 11. Paul knew that we would wonder about God doing that. We are actually questioning why the Great Potter would do such things. We see it as evil and unjust. Paul knew that we would.

So to make it "right" in their mind, many have said that what God really does is use foreknowledge and looked into the future and harden folks like Pharoah and Israel based on what He saw them do.

Sorta like God didn't make the Flint River flow from north to south. He used His foreknowledge and saw that it flowed that way before Creation and created it to flow that way based on His foreknowledge.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
Maybe if I ask it more simple. If God chooses vessels of wrath or honor based on foreknowledge, can either of those type of vessels change to another form, in the future, using free will?

Even easier, can a man God has already foreseen to not accept Him use his free will to choose God in the future?

“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not”

I think one would be fooling themselves to try to figure out how God works.

Think about it, it was a perfect world with nothing to atone. If man wasn’t allowed to lust after his flesh, it’d still be a perfect world with nothing to atone.

God allowing you to do anything doesn’t equate to “power to man”.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not”

I think one would be fooling themselves to try to figure out how God works.

Think about it, it was a perfect world with nothing to atone. If man wasn’t allowed to lust after his flesh, it’d still be a perfect world with nothing to atone.

God allowing you to do anything doesn’t equate to “power to man”.
Yet the atonement in the form of the Word was already with God.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
Yet the atonement in the form of the Word was already with God.
Back to foreknowledge. He knew He’d allow things and He knew man would chose flesh.

My point was if man wasn’t allowed that by God, there’d been nothing to atone to begin with.
 

M80

Useles Billy’s Spiritual Counselor
Maybe if I ask it more simple. If God chooses vessels of wrath or honor based on foreknowledge, can either of those type of vessels change to another form, in the future, using free will?

Even easier, can a man God has already foreseen to not accept Him use his free will to choose God in the future?
He has seen every aspect of each man’s life. He is all powerful. To not know that is to limit the power of God. Jesus said all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. He knows all. He knows if one was going to change his mind a thousand times over and over each day of our life. He knows the very hairs numbered on our head each day even the ones we loose while washing our hair. If we don’t believe that we limit Gods all knowing power. He spoke the world into existence. Don’t put limitations on his power. Man thinks to much and puts to much criteria on what if. There isn’t no what if’s with God. Nothing has occurred to God for he truly is a know it all. He is the only one.
 
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