God Does Not Predestinate Any Particular Person To Be Saved Or Lost

[Artfuldodger]

In relation to predestination, I have a friend who is always telling me how God puts her in certain places to help others. This is usually related to the highway. The last mention was how God put her behind someone who lost their load of furniture from a truck. The person just had surgery and thus God had placed her there at that time to help.
This same story line is often repeated with other episodes. Sometimes God delays her by not letting her car crank to avoid accidents, etc.
I just wonder how much of this is God's predestination, vs His intervention, or just happenstance? How can God intervene based on the fact that he has already seen?
Also why didn't God just stop the furniture from falling off the truck? Unless it was some sort of a test to see if my friend would fail but that seems to be more what Satan does than God.

 

[BanjoPicker]

Yes but I might have missed something in relation to the Gentiles per Paul's verses in Ephesians 2:12-13.
What could you share to help a feller out?

Yep posted thread on The Old Testament Church

 

[gemcgrew]

Nothing before Jesus……..but you’re saved by Grace starting in Genesis way before the arrival of Jesus……..how’d you get to the Father without Jesus??

The Father chose me in Christ before there ever was a piece of dirt.

Since technically is a must - after the crucifixion of Jesus, “how” to be saved was first preached in Acts.

You will never understand what I am saying while your thoughts about salvation are limited to time events. You have a very limited view, or no view at all, of God's eternal work.

 

[gemcgrew]

Even when you sin?

Everything

 

[Spotlite]

The Father chose me in Christ before there ever was a piece of dirt.

You will never understand what I am saying while your thoughts about salvation are limited to time events. You have a very limited view, or no view at all, of God's eternal work.

I don’t think you know me that well. I’m just responding to your very limited thoughts.

We aren’t talking about “chosen” we are talking about the moment you were saved with my question to you “were you born saved?”

You make it sound as if you were saved prior to your only way to the Father - through the blood of Jesus.

His overall plan from point A to B isn’t in question. When and hued your get to B?

Mine was at camp meeting. June 20, 1982.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I don’t think you know me that well. I’m just responding to your very limited thoughts.

We aren’t talking about “chosen” we are talking about the moment you were saved with my question to you “were you born saved?”

You make it sound as if you were saved prior to your only way to the Father - through the blood of Jesus.

His overall plan from point A to B isn’t in question. When and hued your get to B?

Mine was at camp meeting. June 20, 1982.

I'll bet God already new that date before you were even born. Now perhaps He didn't cause it but he also knew that you would still be alive on June 20, 1982. So in a way your destiny was sealed by God's foreknowledge, even if it wasn't predestined. But in a way, since God already knew, it was.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Yep posted thread on The Old Testament Church

From post #2 on that thread;
Israel was a called-out nation in the Old Testament times just as the Christians in the New Testament times are "called-out" people from the world.

How is that not election and/or predestination? Especially if the Gentiles had no hope or promises given to Israel and being strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel?

 

[BanjoPicker]

Everything

God could not and did not CREATE ANY THING SINFUL. Everything in the SPIRIT AND HUMAN REALMS that is WICKED and REBELLIOUS has become this way because of SIN and because of FREE CHOICE.
That sounds like Adam in Genesis after he had sin.

 

[BanjoPicker]

From post #2 on that thread;
Israel was a called-out nation in the Old Testament times just as the Christians in the New Testament times are "called-out" people from the world.

How is that not election and/or predestination? Especially if the Gentiles had no hope or promises given to Israel and being strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel?

Why did He turn to the Gentiles then?
The earthly Jews or the natural seed of Abraham who obeyed the terms of the covenants and met the conditions of the promises belong to the "called out" people in the wilderness. Those who SINNED WERE CUT OFF from the blessings of the covenants just as people in the present church are cut off through sin (1 Cor. 10:1-13; Heb. 2:1-4; 3:7-4:11; Jude 5).

 

[gemcgrew]

His overall plan from point A to B isn’t in question. When and hued your get to B?

If "His overall plan from point A to B isn’t in question", why are you asking me how I got to point B? God declared the end from the beginning.

Mine was at camp meeting. June 20, 1982.

A time event.

 

[Spotlite]

Why did He turn to the Gentiles then?
The earthly Jews or the natural seed of Abraham who obeyed the terms of the covenants and met the conditions of the promises belong to the "called out" people in the wilderness. Those who SINNED WERE CUT OFF from the blessings of the covenants just as people in the present church are cut off through sin (1 Cor. 10:1-13; Heb. 2:1-4; 3:7-4:11; Jude 5).

This an area where some can’t comprehend what an omniscient God is. Because He knew, supposedly, only reason she knows is because He decided for them.

God wanted a pure relationship and not a forced shotgun wedding with man, He came down to commune in the Garden.

He knew when gave man a choice that man would fall.

 

[Spotlite]

If "His overall plan from point A to B isn’t in question", why are you asking me how I got to point B? God declared the end from the beginning.

A time event.

Because you took God’s overall plan and saved yourself long before God gave you a path. You went around Jesus before His work was complete - another timed event.

 

[gemcgrew]

God could not and did not CREATE ANY THING SINFUL.

God said that He creates evil and the wicked for the day of evil. He does this for Himself. He does this to show His wrath, to display His power, and to make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory.

Everything in the SPIRIT AND HUMAN REALMS that is WICKED and REBELLIOUS has become this way because of SIN and because of FREE CHOICE.

No, it is that way because God is displaying His power.

Free choice? Look here:
"He turned their heart to hate His people, To deal craftily with His servants."

And later we see that He did this to show His power, that He would get all the glory.

 

[gemcgrew]

Because you took God’s overall plan and saved yourself long before God gave you a path. You went around Jesus before His work was complete - another timed event.

When did God declare the end from the beginning? From eternity, not in time.

 

[gemcgrew]

All events in the sphere of time(creation) are the manifestation of a single prior event in the eternal sphere, where God dwells. You may have heard this referred to as God's eternal decree. We don't have anything to do with a divine act, or we would have cause to boast.

I never asked him, but I believe this is what Hummerpoo had in mind when he told us that our choices are the effect, not the cause, of God's prior choice. Or something to that effect.

Edited to delete quote of deleted post.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Why did He turn to the Gentiles then?
The earthly Jews or the natural seed of Abraham who obeyed the terms of the covenants and met the conditions of the promises belong to the "called out" people in the wilderness. Those who SINNED WERE CUT OFF from the blessings of the covenants just as people in the present church are cut off through sin (1 Cor. 10:1-13; Heb. 2:1-4; 3:7-4:11; Jude 5).

How could one who was saved and had blessed assurance be cut off through sin? What about the washing?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Because you took God’s overall plan and saved yourself long before God gave you a path. You went around Jesus before His work was complete - another timed event.

I think you need to reword your wording "and saved yourself." Even free will believer's don't believe that.

 

[Israel]

Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.


Not a particularly difficult analogy. The toddler is purposed to possess all that is the father's. But he is not given (apart from growth and schooling) a loaded pistol to handle, nor the car keys tossed to him.

In fact, or in truth, the toddler has no knowledge nor understanding of himself at all as toddler. Yes, he knows the Father as "bigger" but he has little grasp at all of (so little in fact) of growth or "was" and "is" and what will be as necessary matters...yet...this does not at all impede desire nor curiosity.
My 2 1/2 y.o. will talk a blue streak but she never mentions "remember when I was an infant?" She has no sense yet of her continuity.

But I will say she is often found quite engaged in "tool" use...dragging her little chair to the kitchen counter to reach for and explore things she is told are "off limits". "NO!"..."Knife hurt baby! She is told. And she can probably repeat it even...but I have little persuasion at all she knows how the knife could hurt nor even much that baby is less her name than a description of her estate.



The following is not as simple on face, essentially because it is not analogy or metaphor. Nevertheless, these next things to be explored, considered, meditated over, prayerfully sought for understanding are precisely assigned their part in that tutelage:


Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Ahh! Elements of the world. Now, there's either a gold mine for digging or minefield of painful (often most effective for lesson) matters. And not unusually it is particularly those painful lessons that spur a seeking of understanding and right handling that we escape harm...or doing it.

And the extreme constraints of them as bondage (not my word) are experienced (per their appointment, and ours to them) are of great use to direct.

A very good way to have a man consider what freedom truly is...is to put him in jail.

But here is a preliminary caution before we go further (especially if we have not considered "elements of the world") For there is a plain inclination to equate a thing about to be mentioned, (I have seen it, heard it, and also found it of my own once inclination) which, because the premise is false in all presumption can only lead into a hardening of a false precept into our delusion and deceit. When a thing not true is expressed, i.e. deceit.

We are about to see (in the mention of several other very important matters) the law. It is very important this not be conflated with, nor understood as one of those "elements of the world". It is an assigned thing to the world. What it does is proscribe and set boundary to the handling of certain elements, but it is not to be confused as one of those elements. It is spiritual. The scripture is plain as to its origins and delivery from a "place" not the world nor "of it", with Paul no less making affirmation of it (the law)

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Progression here, again, cannot be accomplished apart from understanding what the apostle establishes previously, children (yet already heirs), tutors, elements of the world, bondage and its experience...etc.



But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


I am persuaded it would be fruitless (for me, and at this moment) to go much beyond a resting in the above. I see that some are not yet ready to receive time as one of the elements of the world. Nor much able to (yet) consider the One sent into the world (and time) came from what is "outside" (and not subject to) it.

Yet, in obedient submission appeared to man as a soul in flesh notwithstanding his own being remaining all of complete spiritual orientation.

And further, while we consider this...even of all the ways that even a man might appear he took on lowest estate. (Phil 2:8)

He could have appeared as a King among men, a high ranking magistrate, a wealthy landowner; any or all of the myriad stations that of themselves lend to a man's attention of other men. Rather He submitted to appearing as one amongst His oppressed people so that even they (among whom he submitted to appearing) would say of Him:

And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

O! both the depths and the heights of glory to be found in considering His incarnation and submitting to "putting on flesh"!

And in that coming came to deliver (by his manifest mastery of authority in all handling...yes, even death because He is not of elemental substance, but spirit) His people from their bondage of tutelage in, and by, the elements of the world. And make them His disciples.


This next is true in a man or isn't. Or isn't yet.

But all that Paul wrote of these matters came not of his own wisdom, not of his own endeavors, nor even of his own choosing...but by his having the Son of God revealed in him, and if one can receive it such moved to him to be delivered from certain constraints of elements...that he be able to "see" outside time. And he was directed to share what he saw. (And also forbidden, at times no less)

Others bear this same testimony. Peter, John (with John being so bold in his understanding of growth to say this)

I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Therefore:


And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

It is all in the seed. Of God. Birth, growth, and such of understanding of what is.

And although it can be either fashionable or convenient to seek to rein things in with either complaint of lack of simplicity or unnecessary complexity or whatever form of expression is handy when the understanding senses limit and prefers to not acknowledge its own limit, nevertheless:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

One is either on a treasure hunt, having a treasure revealed in themselves, or in some sensing even such treasure exists...some "place".

Simplicity of devotion to Christ is one thing, the gospel by which such devotion is delivered to a man for growth in him another, even reduction to seeing a seed as containing all, another.

But the very Who of Who has ordained this working in truth remains all of wonder, even and in spite of what appears a very simply repeated operation:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

A man might say, or even agree to its "right sounding" to himself and for himself as direction, explanation, instruction, or even command. But he will (if he has not yet) come up hard against a matter that must be untangled for him in all he now knows he could never do of himself nor for himself.

 

[Spotlite]

All events in the sphere of time(creation) are the manifestation of a single prior event in the eternal sphere, where God dwells. You may have heard this referred to as God's eternal decree. We don't have anything to do with a divine act, or we would have cause to boast.

I never asked him, but I believe this is what Hummerpoo had in mind when he told us that our choices are the effect, not the cause, of God's prior choice. Or something to that effect.

Edited to delete quote of deleted post.

I get what you’re saying. I can agree

 

[Spotlite]

I think you need to reword your wording "and saved yourself." Even free will believer's don't believe that.

I don’t think he actually saved himself. It was a sarcastic comment.