Coram Deo

[BANDERSNATCH]

Shall evangelists keep a moel in company? Or are we to learn the trade ourselves?

??? Is this a circumcision question? what do you mean by "in company"?

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

something I wanted to add was... if we read only the words of our Messiah, and not Paul, there would be no confusion on obedience. Also, Jesus said that His words were not His own, but from His Father. Many talk as if Jesus was doing His own thing, separate and independent of the Father. That is not true.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

BTW....do you guys know if there are any Messianic Jews who frequent GON? Some may just lurk....but wondered if any had ever declared.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

God knows how I esteem Jesus Christ...and how I esteem Paul.
But just as I have abandoned trying to find the "line" the delineates (as if one existed) between Jesus and the Father, I am no longer inclined to try to vainly see what separates Paul from Messiah Jesus.

Do I confuse the two? God forbid. It is only because I hear Messiah working through a man like Paul, speaking through a man like Paul, patiently instructing through a man like Paul that I even begin to rightly see Paul.
But God forbid I go about trying to find a line between in a man, about a man who to me, God knows, endured what He endured in Christ's declaration of unity within Himself of believers...to know and see the truth of such declaration. And not only so...but to participate in (and allow if one can receive it) such working in himself to the abandoning of all other standing except upon the mercy and grace of God shown in Christ.

No offense, brother. I was just saying that Paul is difficult to understand, just as Peter warned in II Peter 3:15-17 Jesus is not hard to understand, and very direct in what He said.

 

[Artfuldodger]

something I wanted to add was... if we read only the words of our Messiah, and not Paul, there would be no confusion on obedience. Also, Jesus said that His words were not His own, but from His Father. Many talk as if Jesus was doing His own thing, separate and independent of the Father. That is not true.

If we would have the words of Christ and all the apostles without Paul, we'd be a lot less confused on a lot of things, lol. People, including me, use Paul to show our beliefs regardless because he is all over the place. It's easy to see free will in his words but it's even easier to see predestination.
Another example is his rules on wives and women. Plus his lists that will keep one out of the Kingdom. But he does say this about that list. "The difference is you were washed."

 

[Artfuldodger]

No offense, brother. I was just saying that Paul is difficult to understand, just as Peter warned in II Peter 3:15-17 Jesus is not hard to understand, and very direct in what He said.

Only related in that it's from Paul, but do you think "Creation" in Romans 1 is Israel? Paul seems to quote Psalm 106:20 as in they knew God but chose to worship idols of images of animals. It's like this group in Romans 1 knew God way beyond some image of nature. Otherwise how could they "exchange" the worship of God for that of idols? We can't expect natives on a Pacific Island to worship God. They may indeed know him by nature but have they "exchanged" the worship of God for that of idols? Has God gave them a reprobate mind because they stop worshiping him?

 

[gemcgrew]

something I wanted to add was... if we read only the words of our Messiah, and not Paul, there would be no confusion on obedience.

Paul's words are the words of our Messiah.

 

[tell sackett]

Paul's words are the words of our Messiah.

This ^^^writ large

 

[Artfuldodger]

Concerning Paul's mystery/secret. "It was made known to me by revelation." "I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ," The other Apostles were astonished at what Paul knew. Things they had witnessed in person.

 

[tell sackett]

Yes...even the things they had witnessed "in person" had to be revealed to them, no less.

Just as John was smitten as though dead when seeing the glory of the Lord on Patmos.

This was not the Jesus who could be advised or corrected.

Amen. I love that last sentence

 

[Bob2010]

Correct. Salvation is through faith alone, rewards are of merit.

I find it interesting that in Acts 21, when Paul comes to Jerusalem and is told that people are lying about him, that Paul, James, and lots of believing elders in the council all thought that keeping the commandments was a sign of "walking upright" before God. I constantly read believers spreading those lies about Paul still today...

Paul was no ordinary Jew when he was still Saul. He was trained by the best! Educated, Roman Citizen, and high ranking with the Sanhedrin. Paul did believe that God's laws were important. He just knew keeping God's law wouldn't save him.

 

[Bob2010]

Why do you think in Jesus' Revelation to John, that He says that the Devil specifically hates Christians that keep the commandments? and, as I'm sure you'll agree, they are a small remnant compared to the billions of christians in the world.

To me there is a difference between a Christian and God's elect. I wouldn't go spouting that out at church. But just because someone claims to love Jesus doesn't mean that they do. That's for God to judge. Not me! The Devil does hate those that try to keep God's law. He hates everyone! Especially those that live for Christ. We make the devils job harder. He really hates the elect. He knows he can't have them.

 

[Bob2010]

BTW....do you guys know if there are any Messianic Jews who frequent GON? Some may just lurk....but wondered if any had ever declared.

I still find it really hard to relate to masonic Jews. They seem bent on changing our traditions. Just because it doesn't tell us dates in the bible. Just because the Bible doesn't tell us to celebrate Easter or Christmas. This doesn't make it a sin to celebrate our Savior. Once you accept Jesus as the Messiah you are a Christian. Not A Jew. You can try to keep Gods laws. You can love Jesus as Lord. You can even be baptized. You can celebrate the feast instead of Christmas and Easter. But you is a Christian now! I still haven't figured out why Gon stick us with the Jews on this page. Unless there are not any Jews on this forum? In which case they can be stuck on any of the forum pages. They just a need a home I guess???

 

[Bob2010]

No offense, brother. I was just saying that Paul is difficult to understand, just as Peter warned in II Peter 3:15-17 Jesus is not hard to understand, and very direct in what He said.

Ti me Peter is hard to understand. Paul is my people! Not worthy of salvation. Too many mistakes! Yet goes on to wrote more of the new testament than anyone else. That's how God rolls. He loves the under dog and shows His power through a nobody like Paul. Meantime the Apostles are arguing about who will be greater. To me Peter struggled with arrogance etc. Some relate to Paul over Peter.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

I still find it really hard to relate to masonic Jews. They seem bent on changing our traditions. Just because it doesn't tell us dates in the bible. Just because the Bible doesn't tell us to celebrate Easter or Christmas. This doesn't make it a sin to celebrate our Savior. Once you accept Jesus as the Messiah you are a Christian. Not A Jew. You can try to keep Gods laws. You can love Jesus as Lord. You can even be baptized. You can celebrate the feast instead of Christmas and Easter. But you is a Christian now! I still haven't figured out why Gon stick us with the Jews on this page. Unless there are not any Jews on this forum? In which case they can be stuck on any of the forum pages. They just a need a home I guess???

You do realize that from the outset all christians were originailly Jews? lol In Act 21 - some 30-40 years after Jesus ascended - we read that there were THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF BELIEVING JEWS just in Jerusalem, and they loved the law, just as Paul and James and the countless elders did. Jews are not Israel, they are a TRIBE of the nation of Israel. When one becomes a christian, they are GRAFTED IN to Isreal, as Paul states several places. (Ephesians 2:11 Romans 11 etc)

Paul - your people - loved the Law lol He says so himself, and shows everyone that he does.

I celebrate the resurrection of Jesus like God told me to....in the Feast of First Fruits. We have Easter and Christmas today because the faith we have been handed has been stripped of anything that looked "jewish". You got to admit, Sundays don't look anything like what we read in the bible. Churches then were lead by a group of elders, today it's preachers. Sabbath has been trashed. God's Feast days - God says they are HIS - have been replaced by santa and eggs, etc. lol

 

[Bob2010]

You do realize that from the outset all christians were originailly Jews? lol In Act 21 - some 30-40 years after Jesus ascended - we read that there were THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF BELIEVING JEWS just in Jerusalem, and they loved the law, just as Paul and James and the countless elders did. Jews are not Israel, they are a TRIBE of the nation of Israel. When one becomes a christian, they are GRAFTED IN to Isreal, as Paul states several places. (Ephesians 2:11 Romans 11 etc)

Paul - your people - loved the Law lol He says so himself, and shows everyone that he does.

I celebrate the resurrection of Jesus like God told me to....in the Feast of First Fruits. We have Easter and Christmas today because the faith we have been handed has been stripped of anything that looked "jewish". You got to admit, Sundays don't look anything like what we read in the bible. Churches then were lead by a group of elders, today it's preachers. Sabbath has been trashed. God's Feast days - God says they are HIS - have been replaced by santa and eggs, etc. lol

I believe there is truth to all of this. However Paul got tired of preaching to the Jews. He turned his efforts to the Gentiles. Martin Luther spent a lifetime trying to get the Jews to accept their own Messiah. He ended up so frustrated that he eventually said the Jews should all die. All the good work he had done up until that point was lost. The Jews for the most part denied Jesus as the Lord. Without the Gentiles the church would not of grown like it did.

 

[Bob2010]

None the less. I am still not sure why the Christians got lumped in with the Jews on this forum? Why put the group that denied thier own Messiah that was announced to them by profits before Christ was born with the group of people that believe Jesus is Lord? You have those that are saved lumped together with the unsaved. Christians are not a sect of the Jewish faith.

 

[Spotlite]

You do realize that from the outset all christians were originailly Jews? lol In Act 21 - some 30-40 years after Jesus ascended - we read that there were THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF BELIEVING JEWS just in Jerusalem, and they loved the law, just as Paul and James and the countless elders did. Jews are not Israel, they are a TRIBE of the nation of Israel. When one becomes a christian, they are GRAFTED IN to Isreal, as Paul states several places. (Ephesians 2:11 Romans 11 etc)

Paul - your people - loved the Law lol He says so himself, and shows everyone that he does.

I celebrate the resurrection of Jesus like God told me to....in the Feast of First Fruits. We have Easter and Christmas today because the faith we have been handed has been stripped of anything that looked "jewish". You got to admit, Sundays don't look anything like what we read in the bible. Churches then were lead by a group of elders, today it's preachers. Sabbath has been trashed. God's Feast days - God says they are HIS - have been replaced by santa and eggs, etc. lol

Biblically you’re either a Jew or a Gentile. Christian is a label and is nothing more than a follower of Jesus Christ. The Jews that reject Jesus aren’t Christian.

If Jesus isn’t the Messiah, how’s that grafting accomplished?

Without a Temple and a high priest how are the Jews keeping the law?

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

Biblically you’re either a Jew or a Gentile. Christian is a label and is nothing more than a follower of Jesus Christ. The Jews that reject Jesus aren’t Christian.

If Jesus isn’t the Messiah, how’s that grafting accomplished?

Without a Temple and a high priest how are the Jews keeping the law?

The Jews (and many people that I know) keep what they can, just like they did when they were taken to Babylon in 586BC. If you read the book of Daniel, it records that the exiled Jews, although having no temple or high priest, kept what they could of the law. (ie food laws)

You're right in that there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, as stated in Galatians. In Revelation, written well after the temple was destroyed, we see Jesus declaring rewards for those who keep the law. Rev 22:14,15

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

I believe there is truth to all of this. However Paul got tired of preaching to the Jews. He turned his efforts to the Gentiles. Martin Luther spent a lifetime trying to get the Jews to accept their own Messiah. He ended up so frustrated that he eventually said the Jews should all die. All the good work he had done up until that point was lost. The Jews for the most part denied Jesus as the Lord. Without the Gentiles the church would not of grown like it did.

Again, nowhere does it says that Paul "got tired" of dealing with Jews. He said that his ministry was to the Gentiles, while Peter's was to the Jews. Matter of fact, Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles on sabbath for many years, as recorded in Acts. He spent over a year meeting with Jews and Gentiles on the sabbath. I don't blame Jews for denying the Jesus they've been preached about. The Jesus they've heard about "did away with the Law" (even though He plainly said that He didn't and that the Law would be until heaven and earth passed away) and that is something that a Jew that knows his bible can't accept. In Deut 13, everyone is warned not to follow someone that doesn't preach Moses' commands. Matter of fact, the last command Jesus gave before dying on the cross was for "the crowd" (not just Jews) listening to Him to follow Moses' teachings. Matt 23:2

Yep, Martin Luther was very anti-Semitic. He hated Jews, sabbath, feasts, etc. Not someone I give much credit to.