A great example....

[LittleDrummerBoy]

While I agree that faith is primarily a vertical relationship between an individual and the Lord, I also realize that humans are social creatures, and we are inclined to find like-minded folks to encourage each other in just about anything we do.

Organizing for the purpose of worshipping and serving God is no worse than organizing to feed the poor, house the homeless, provide hunting opportunities, host shooting events, or encourage one another in fishing.

But there are good and bad organizations for every goal. What makes an organization bad? I've noticed a few commonalities:

1. Trying to assert more power than needed to accomplish the goals.
2. Placing a higher priority on the organization's continued existence than on its mission.
3. Thinking it's approach is the only "right" way.
4. Striving for a bigger piece of the pie rather than creating a bigger pie.
5. The love of money.
6. Redefining "good" and "bad" according to its own rules rather than an eternal standard, and judging people by those rules who have not agreed to them.
7. Trying to exercise authority and influence outside of their given sphere or trying to define their legitimate sphere as larger than it is.

Now, it's easy to point out how organizations we don't like have the bad features listed above. But how are we doing these same things in our own churches, families, clubs, teams, businesses, etc.? Let's get the log out of our own eye first.

 

[Israel]

That log things always trips me up.
It's kinda like no one ever has to tell me I'm cold, or hungry, uncomfortable, smart enough to be me, or that other folks are wrong...when they look wrong to me.

I just never doubt my own sensing.

Except for that log thing.


That just beats the heck outta me every time.

 

[tokenliberal]

Religion is a connection between an invisible man and your money.These Xians are on TV 24 hrs a day telling you how you should give them your money.You would think a God would be able to generate money without having to beg for it.What happened to the all knowing,all seeing ,all powerful deity?Maybe he never was really there?

 

[660griz]

Organizing for the purpose of worshipping and serving God is no worse than organizing to feed the poor, house the homeless, provide hunting opportunities, host shooting events, or encourage one another in fishing.

Interesting you think gathering to worship is right up there with feeding the poor, housing the homeless, etc.

 

[WaltL1]

While I agree that faith is primarily a vertical relationship between an individual and the Lord, I also realize that humans are social creatures, and we are inclined to find like-minded folks to encourage each other in just about anything we do.

Organizing for the purpose of worshipping and serving God is no worse than organizing to feed the poor, house the homeless, provide hunting opportunities, host shooting events, or encourage one another in fishing.

But there are good and bad organizations for every goal. What makes an organization bad? I've noticed a few commonalities:

1. Trying to assert more power than needed to accomplish the goals.
2. Placing a higher priority on the organization's continued existence than on its mission.
3. Thinking it's approach is the only "right" way.
4. Striving for a bigger piece of the pie rather than creating a bigger pie.
5. The love of money.
6. Redefining "good" and "bad" according to its own rules rather than an eternal standard, and judging people by those rules who have not agreed to them.
7. Trying to exercise authority and influence outside of their given sphere or trying to define their legitimate sphere as larger than it is.

Now, it's easy to point out how organizations we don't like have the bad features listed above. But how are we doing these same things in our own churches, families, clubs, teams, businesses, etc.? Let's get the log out of our own eye first.

What makes an organization bad? I've noticed a few commonalities:

1. Trying to assert more power than needed to accomplish the goals.
2. Placing a higher priority on the organization's continued existence than on its mission.
3. Thinking it's approach is the only "right" way.
4. Striving for a bigger piece of the pie rather than creating a bigger pie.
5. The love of money.
6. Redefining "good" and "bad" according to its own rules rather than an eternal standard, and judging people by those rules who have not agreed to them.
7. Trying to exercise authority and influence outside of their given sphere or trying to define their legitimate sphere as larger than it is.

It would be pretty simple to apply and provide examples of organized religion, as an organization, doing exactly that ^ throughout history including the present..
Could one also apply and provide positive examples? Of course.
Is like minded people "organzing" together a "bad" thing in and of itself? Of course not.

Let's get the log out of our own eye first.

I completely agree with the premise.
However, it can also be used as a very convenient excuse.

 

[Israel]

It would be pretty simple to apply and provide examples of organized religion, as an organization, doing exactly that ^ throughout history including the present..
Could one also apply and provide positive examples? Of course.
Is like minded people "organzing" together a "bad" thing in and of itself? Of course not.

I completely agree with the premise.
However, it can also be used as a very convenient excuse.

I am not sure I understand. And I realize you are addressing LDB, not me. You surely owe me no understanding, but I ask. This is in regards to the last two sentences.

 

[WaltL1]

Interesting you think gathering to worship is right up there with feeding the poor, housing the homeless, etc.

 

[WaltL1]

I am not sure I understand. And I realize you are addressing LDB, not me. You surely owe me no understanding, but I ask. This is in regards to the last two sentences.

You surely owe me no understanding

I might not owe it but I would prefer it

I completely agree with the premise.

I completely agree with the premise of checking ourselves before we go blaming/accusing/finding fault in others.

However, it can also be used as a very convenient excuse.

If you don't really want to acknowledge something, or explore it fully or for a variety of reasons.... its easy to more or less dismiss it with "well Im not/no one is perfect either...".

 

[Israel]

I might not owe it but I would prefer it

I completely agree with the premise of checking ourselves before we go blaming/accusing/finding fault in others.

If you don't really want to acknowledge something, or explore it fully or for a variety of reasons.... its easy to more or less dismiss it with "well Im not/no one is perfect either...".

OK, I think I get it. The premise of "get the log out of your own eye..." is OK, but it can be used as an excuse?

And I sure can't tell you how anyone views that particular passage except me. And for me the experience of it is better summed up by what I've already said...rather than try to say "what I think it means".

And thanks for taking the time.

And it also goes a long way relative to that "flipped the script" thing you mentioned than some other explanations.

 

[WaltL1]

OK, I think I get it. The premise of "get the log out of your own eye..." is OK, but it can be used as an excuse?

And I sure can't tell you how anyone views that particular passage except me. And for me the experience of it is better summed up by what I've already said...rather than try to say "what I think it means".

And thanks for taking the time.

And it also goes a long way relative to that "flipped the script" thing you mentioned than some other explanations.

OK, I think I get it. The premise of "get the log out of your own eye..." is OK, but it can be used as an excuse?

I would say it is of far more import than just OK.
And yes it can be used as an excuse -
The parent who doesnt really want to accept their kid's drug use - "well he's a teenager we all tried drugs when we were teenagers".

 

[Israel]

I would say it is of far more import than just OK.
And yes it can be used as an excuse -
The parent who doesnt really want to accept their kid's drug use - "well he's a teenager we all tried drugs when we were teenagers".

Well, that's good to hear.

That you esteem it more than just OK.

(Not being facetious)

 

[LittleDrummerBoy]

But there are good and bad organizations for every goal. What makes an organization bad? I've noticed a few commonalities:

1. Trying to assert more power than needed to accomplish the goals.
2. Placing a higher priority on the organization's continued existence than on its mission.
3. Thinking it's approach is the only "right" way.
4. Striving for a bigger piece of the pie rather than creating a bigger pie.
5. The love of money.
6. Redefining "good" and "bad" according to its own rules rather than an eternal standard, and judging people by those rules who have not agreed to them.
7. Trying to exercise authority and influence outside of their given sphere or trying to define their legitimate sphere as larger than it is.

It would be pretty simple to apply and provide examples of organized religion, as an organization, doing exactly that ^ throughout history including the present..

I've found the list of things that make organizations bad much more likely to be true of public schools than of the churches I've attended. I've also found them more likely to be true of most of the employers I've worked for. I would bet if you considered it carefully, your experience with public schools and employers might be similar.

So why do we tolerate these defining characteristics of bad organizations in public schools and employers?

 

[bullethead]

I've found the list of things that make organizations bad much more likely to be true of public schools than of the churches I've attended. I've also found them more likely to be true of most of the employers I've worked for. I would bet if you considered it carefully, your experience with public schools and employers might be similar.

So why do we tolerate these defining characteristics of bad organizations in public schools and employers?

An organization is only as good as the person or entity in charge.

 

[bullethead]

And while I agree that an Organization is a reflection of its members and the actions of a few bad members do not represent the entirety, the effect of constant and repetitive negative actions by members or employees eventually make their way to the top brass to have to answer for their employees or members. If nothing is done to rectify the problems a change in leadership is often made. Many of these instances go on for months or years and when finally addressed the entire Organization has a bad reputation for 1. It happening. 2 . It happening over and over. And 3. The Boss/CEO/Head Honcho/Owner doing nothing to acknowledge it, address it and ultimately prevent it. Now multiply that to the tune of hundreds and thousands of instances over hundreds and thousands of years absolutely does reflect the leadership on an Organization and or Company.
I full well expect it from and am no longer surprised by the action and inaction of humans, not from something that is constantly touted as being better than human and all powerful and all knowing.

 

[WaltL1]

I've found the list of things that make organizations bad much more likely to be true of public schools than of the churches I've attended. I've also found them more likely to be true of most of the employers I've worked for. I would bet if you considered it carefully, your experience with public schools and employers might be similar.

So why do we tolerate these defining characteristics of bad organizations in public schools and employers?

So why do we tolerate these defining characteristics of bad organizations in public schools and employers?

There are a whole bunch of answers to that question.
Just few would be -
Employers -
People need jobs.
People need benefits.
The average employee doesnt have a clue what the "Board of Directors" do/decide.
People dont care.
What we might deem as bad characteristics are actually sound business decisions.
What you or I deem as bad, others deem as good.
The public wants or needs what these companies are selling.
Just a few ^
Public schools -
Many, many families cant afford an alternative.
Many, many parent(s) arent qualified to home school.
Many parents are satisfied with public schools.
Many parents are completely disconnected from their children and their education.
Many families have 2 working parents and need the public schools and the activities to "take care" of their kids while they work.
Just a few ^
You specified public schools and employers so that what I responded to.
You left out organized religion so I did not comment on that. All you have to do is review history and one can come up with a list quite easily. A number of the above attributes can be applied to organized religion also as its a "business" whether one admits/recognizes it or not.