A little Legalism For Everyone ? LOL

Lowjack

Senior Member
Christian Legalism - The Dark Side of Christianity
By Don Koenig



There is one side of Christianity that waters down the gospel and makes following Jesus some self improvement program for the successful. It is attractive to Western pseudo Christians looking for some purpose to a materialistic way of life. Meanwhile, thousands of real Christians are dying for their faith in Jesus Christ all over the world while these success motivated “Christians” listen to humanistic teachings and belly up to their church cappuccino bar.


I have already said plenty about this postmodern side of Christianity with its seeker friendly church programs and emergent church doctrines. I also wrote an article about the rising influence of psychology and the dominionists in Christianity who see a triumphant church ruling in the earthly domain of Satan. Yet, there is even a darker side of Christianity that few are talking about. Some in this darker side are the same ones who criticize the seeker friendly postmodern salvation lite message - so be very careful about the doctrine you receive. Nevertheless, the fact that there is a darker side in Christianity is not an excuse for anyone to accept the errors of those who water down and dumb down Christian doctrine and paganize Christianity with “New Age” concepts that lead most of Christianity down the path to Laodicea (lukewarm Christianity).



This darker side of Christianity makes Christianity something to be achieved by following doctrines from men who never understood the plan of salvation in the first place. These men believe salvation comes by obedience to keeping commandments and by following certain rules or rituals of practice. For want of a better term, I will call this dark side of Christianity "legalism".


When I say these are legalistic, I am not talking about those who believe every word of scripture and apply them in such a way that can be supported in the light of all of scripture. The Christian legalists I am talking about are those who take certain passages of scripture to imply the Bible says something that really cannot be supported in its full light. I am talking about those who try to conform to the letter without having the Holy Spirit so that they are unable to apply the scriptures with any wisdom or understanding. They are like some modern lawyers of our day who often twist the truth on purpose to achieve their desired outcome of deception.



These legalists are a cancer in Christianity


These wolves in sheep's clothing are the rule in a few denominations and a cancer in others. They have doctrines that only confuse people or lead people to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. The Church and Judaism have always had them. Jesus called these Scribe and Pharisee types, vipers and sons of their father the Devil. If we go back to early Christianity, Paul speaks expressly against those who want to keep everyone under the law. The law was given to show that we are imperfect and condemned to be separated from God unless God Himself did something to bridge that gap. That is why both Jews and Gentiles must come to God by the "Law of Faith". Our example in scripture is Abraham.



The Law of Faith is belief that only God is righteous and merciful and that only He can provide the way of salvation for mankind. This plan of salvation from God was actually carried out when God the Son (Jesus) paid the requirements of the law for all on the cross. These who by faith believe God and accept the sacrifice He provided for mankind's sins will be saved. You see, God is interested in saving people who truly trust in Him. God is not interested in having people in His presence who think they got there by their own righteousness through following the letter of the law or by rituals of obedience.



Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.



Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.



Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.





Throughout Church and Jewish history, there were many legalists that interpreted scriptures through black light. They even killed many who did not accept their dark interpretation. In the modern church, there are still many legalists who condemn people to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- who will not accept their demonically inspired doctrines. In one way or another they always put people back under the requirements of the law and in the final analysis they make salvation something that comes through one's own effort. (Of course they deny that they do that, but their legalistic doctrine says otherwise.) These dark clouds without water deny that you can be saved by faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus alone. They always add something more to salvation than trusting in Jesus Christ. I will give some examples:



When thinking of legalists most will think of the smaller more fundamental denominations and sects - and they certainly have their share of legalists - but the largest denomination in Christianity is a denomination led by Pharisees who also practice legalism to the nth degree. I am talking about the Catholic Church. What this church offers their members is salvation by good works, by their own merits, and by grace dispensed by the ruling hierarchy of the church. The works and the merits that advance one to heaven come by keeping Jewish law or doctrines of men. This is not the Law of faith and the path to salvation expressed by Paul. It is a false path to salvation achieved through one's own effort. According to the doctrine of this church, those who do not keep the law and do not find absolution from the church will not go to heaven. They at best will go to purgatory and they will remain there for quite some time to pay for their sins unless someone else does works of merit for them to advance them through purgatory. Those who do not accept the teaching of this church or who make a grievous sin that has not been absolved by a priest of this church will simply go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.


This is Christian legalism because they support their position by twisting passages of scripture to conform to the doctrine of their church even though it flies in the face of the clear gospel of salvation through the Law of Faith. They give lip service to Protestant Christians and even call them brothers but their doctrine that cannot change (because they claim it to be infallible) still condemns these same brothers to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- unless they return to the Catholic Church. Meanwhile, they embrace those who worship in pagan religions and Catholic leaders have even said that these pagans worship the same God. They are right they do; his name in either case is Satan.



No Catholic who believes what their church tells them has any assurance of salvation. They would consider such a belief presumptuous since salvation and the promise of heaven depends on one's own actions in life and the action of others who intercede (even after you are dead to help advance you through purgatory). Thus, they deny that Jesus Christ atoned for all sin at the cross. Therefore, they have no law of faith within them.



Legalistic Catholic theologians have head knowledge of Christ but he is a counterfeit Christ (the spiritual attributes of their Christ for the most part is not found in the Bible). Their hope of salvation is established on a theology of works. It is not the free gift from God that is taught in scripture for all those who believe. In reality, there is not an ounce of difference between the legalistic Pharisees of the Jews and the legalistic Catholic hierarchy. Both the Jewish Pharisees and the Catholic theologians teach that works and ritual can earn brownie points with God. The largest denomination in Christendom gives lip service to Jesus but their doctrine proves to be anti Christ.





The Largest Protestant denomination is the Baptists. They basically have a correct view of how one is saved. However, even within the Baptists there are many legalistic preachers who will give salvation by faith in Jesus in one message and then take it away in the next. Some tell their members they must obey certain laws and covenants. They even doubt the salvation of those who will not be hypocrites by following the will of a legalistic elder into some oath or commitment. Some members have been put out of their church for taking a stand against such unbiblical practices. The legalists in this camp also try to make members obey Old Testament law through the flesh and they continually threaten them with the consequences of breaking God's law rather than teaching Christians how to live as a new spirit creature in Christ that lives by the Law of Faith. All sins of the past, present, and future have already been paid for. If man could keep the law Jesus did not need to come and take our sins upon Himself on the cross. Only a personal loving relationship with Jesus will change the wicked heart of man.





Many Pentecostal and Charismatic preachers also tend toward legalism. I really think that some of this is because many of the leaders are also control freaks and pulpit bullies. They want to micro-manage every aspect of their congregation's spiritual walk. (e.g. You better tithe to me brother because I need the money! You need to speak in tongues so I know you are sold on the Pentecostal doctrine. You need to fall when I touch you brother because if you do not you have not submitted to me and that is not acceptable etc. etc.). Many legalists in both the Baptist and the Pentecostal denominations can be found beating up on their flock each Sunday to try to whip them into Christian shape. The pastors become like drill sergeants who talk down to their squad. Many have the nature of school yard bullies rather than the nature of shepherds. Instead of beating up the flock in the flesh they might instead talk about the spiritual calling of Christians. They might tell the people what love God has for them displayed by Jesus taking their sins upon Himself and what God promises in the future for those who trust Jesus with their lives. Preaching that mankind should stay holy through their own effort will only result in failure and bring guilt that makes Christians doubt their salvation. What kind of gospel (good news) is that? The same people get saved over and over again in services and rallies mainly because someone made them doubt their salvation.



I could go on to talk about most denominations because there are legalists in all of them, but I think you understand my message by now.



I do need to talk some about the groups who are so far out of line that they not only can be called legalistic they can be called legalistic cults.



There are groups that are so blinded by black light that they think that only their own little sect has any truth and that only their sect has the correct formula for Salvation. Most Oneness Pentecostals fit this mold. They are so blind they cannot even see that the scriptures teach that God is triune. Yet, with these blind eyes, they say that anyone who does not see things their way have not been saved. They always add works to salvation. Their members claim to be in and out of the body of Christ all the time - depending on their daily walk. They always include in salvation a couple of legalistic steps of obedience (i.e. certain words said by a believer during the baptism ritual and the method of baptism by water during the ritual).



They take certain obscure passages in scripture to prove their point but ignore the overwhelming weight of scripture that demolish such beliefs. This is a classic example of a group that can quote certain scripture passages by rote but they do not have enough understanding to even figure out why their position conflicts with other scriptures and with others who also claim to be Christian. To give some in “Oneness” the benefit of the doubt a lot of the members have little education. They only know what the elders tell them. Even most of the elders have no formal education or the education came from the views of their own narrow-minded seminaries and doctrine. Therefore, erroneous doctrine is passed down from one generation to the next. (It is true because my pappy said it is true and he knows it was true because his pappy said it was true etc. etc.).



There are the Church of Christ legalists who put the members under law and say if you are not baptized in water according to the method in their church you are not saved. There are the Seventh Day Adventist legalists who put their members under law and condemn other Christians who celebrate Sunday. Then there are the cults like the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses who are so legalistic and blinded by dark light that they cannot even be called Christian.



Legalists say they see but they are blind and hateful


There is one thing that most of these Christian legalists have in common:

They all assume that any others that do not see things their way are not even Christian. They claim to be in the body of Christ but their doctrine and their actions attack people that are actually in the body of Christ.


All of these legalistic groups have at least some knowledge of the scriptures and some have a great deal of knowledge of what the Bible says. So what is the problem here? The problem is they can read scripture but they cannot comprehend it. They cannot correlate what they read with other passages of Scripture in their black light. That is true of the world in general because light from the Holy Spirit is required to properly discern scripture passages. The reason they do not have light is they want to be acceptable to God by obedience and their works instead of by the Law of Faith. If they came to Jesus this way they have never been saved.



Those who find themselves in these groups would be very wise to try to find out for themselves why Christians say they teach a doctrine of works and they are legalistic. Arguing a position from the doctrine that you were spoon-fed will not bring you enlightenment. It will only bring further bondage. If your doctrine can stand in the light it will stand, but if the doctrine of your sect is darkness, that will be discovered in the true light. If you are open to truth, you will then be able to see the way out. However, if you wish to be wise in your own eyes and teach people some path to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----, you will bring upon yourself a harsher judgment.



Christians who find themselves in a legalistic church or under legalistic teachers really need to leave. There is almost no chance that you can change them but there can be a few exceptions in those churches where the doctrine is not well established. I thought a former church I belonged to was heading in that direction when they hired a legalistic new pastor so I left pronto. I did go back because they fired the pastor over doctrine soon after I left. The church surprised me. I knew most members where not legalistic but I had little regard for their biblical discernment since many members had never read the Bible. I left because I figured I had no influence on their choice of pastors since I was a member of this church for less than a year. Unless you are in leadership in a legalistic church and have great influence to change things, find a new church that understands about the Law of Faith and gives Christians the freedom in Christ that Jesus gives.



Leave the legalistic Christian pastors alone to teach legalistic Christians who love their exclusive club of bondage.


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apoint

Senior Member
I dont think most can't take the truth but we have to say the truth to expose the darkness and show the light that they may see THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIFE.
 
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gordon 2

Senior Member
No where is legalism more prevelant that in our churches--all of them.
 

Dominic

Banned
Heaven is going to be a very lonely place, only Lowjack, apoint, and Mr. Koenig will be there.

If only the rest of us could worship as perfectly as the three of you.
 

rjcruiser

Senior Member
the Catholic Church. What this church offers their members is salvation by good works, by their own merits, and by grace. The works and the merits that advance one to heaven come by keeping Jewish law or doctrines of men. According to the doctrine of this church, those who do not keep the law and do not find absolution from the church will not go to heaven. They at best will go to purgatory and they will remain there for quite some time to pay for their sins unless someone else does works of merit for them to advance them through purgatory. Those who do not accept the teaching of this church or who make a grievous sin that has not been absolved by a priest of this church will simply go to he11--.


No Catholic has any assurance of salvation. The promise of heaven depends on one's own actions in life and the action of others who intercede (even after you are dead to help advance you through purgatory).

Their hope of salvation is established on a theology of works. It is not the free gift from God that is taught in scripture for all those who believe.


Dominic/Dawg....

Curious as to your thoughts on the section above. Tried to weed out some of the "hate" speech...as even I think it was a bit "overdone." Is the above sections not an accurate view of the Catholic Church?
 

Lowjack

Senior Member
Heaven is going to be a very lonely place, only Lowjack, apoint, and Mr. Koenig will be there.

If only the rest of us could worship as perfectly as the three of you.

That would be very Biblically supported.

Like " Many are called , Few are Chosen"

Not all who say Lord Lord in your name we casted Evil and Healed the sick, then I will say to them go away from me , I never knew you"
 

Ronnie T

Ol' Retired Mod
I'm not too keen on the term 'doctrines of men'.

If it's in God's word, it is God's doctrine.

Also, I'm always at a loss when a person who is striving for obedience to God's word is branded as a legalist.

What's the difference in a legalist and a 'normal' Christian? Is it that a 'normal' Christian is comfortable in their sins and a legalist holds himself responsible?

I'm just wondering how the word is generally used in regard to the Gospel.
 

Dominic

Banned
That would be very Biblically supported.

Like " Many are called , Few are Chosen"

Not all who say Lord Lord in your name we casted Evil and Healed the sick, then I will say to them go away from me , I never knew you"

Notice I said "only Lowjack, apoint, and Mr. Koenig "

I highly doubt the three of you would let in even the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit in.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I'm not too keen on the term 'doctrines of men'.

If it's in God's word, it is God's doctrine.

Also, I'm always at a loss when a person who is striving for obedience to God's word is branded as a legalist.

What's the difference in a legalist and a 'normal' Christian? Is it that a 'normal' Christian is comfortable in their sins and a legalist holds himself responsible?

I'm just wondering how the word is generally used in regard to the Gospel.

I probalby am over my head here with a response. The legalist is not comfortable or accustomed to grace, ...perhaps.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Dominic/Dawg....

Curious as to your thoughts on the section above. Tried to weed out some of the "hate" speech...as even I think it was a bit "overdone." Is the above sections not an accurate view of the Catholic Church?

I am not one of the two Ds , but I know a little about the CC. It is not an accurate view. For example the CC says you don't even have to be a RC to know salvation, so that the offices of the CC are required for salvation is blown out at the C's front doors.
 

Inthegarge

Senior Member
"There are the Church of Christ legalists who put the members under law and say if you are not baptized in water according to the method in their church you are not saved. There are the Seventh Day Adventist legalists who put their members under law and condemn other Christians who celebrate Sunday. Then there are the cults like the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses who are so legalistic and blinded by dark light that they cannot even be called Christian."

Funny the Mormons are trying so hard to be considered Christians....See the Glenn Beck thread.....RW
 

Israel

BANNED
The question remains, why would someone want to belong to something of which the Lord Jesus is not, that is, a member of a religion?
Unless that man has abandoned hope, or never known the Holy Spirit?
 

gtparts

Senior Member
I'm not too keen on the term 'doctrines of men'.

If it's in God's word, it is God's doctrine.

Also, I'm always at a loss when a person who is striving for obedience to God's word is branded as a legalist.

What's the difference in a legalist and a 'normal' Christian? Is it that a 'normal' Christian is comfortable in their sins and a legalist holds himself responsible?

I'm just wondering how the word is generally used in regard to the Gospel.

I probalby am over my head here with a response. The legalist is not comfortable or accustomed to grace, ...perhaps.

Gordie, I would tend to agree with your view on the legalist.

Seems they are always drawing favorable comparisons to others to enhance their position, rather than measuring themselves against the spotless Lamb of God.

At first glance, there appears to be a fine line between the legalist and the one who actively pursues sanctification. Perhaps the legalist has created his own stumbling block, where the one seeking sanctification is allowing God to remove all stumbling blocks. The line may not be so fine when we consider how truly different the two are.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
The question remains, why would someone want to belong to something of which the Lord Jesus is not, that is, a member of a religion?
Unless that man has abandoned hope, or never known the Holy Spirit?

Because the church is an institution whereby Saints pool resources and gifts in order to make the Kingdom prosperous. It is not essential to salvation. But would you like to be operated on by an "I fly solo" physician or one that is associated with a college of physicians.???

Just a point. No polemics required brother. I trust the Lord is by your side, ...ask Him.

Also to say that Jesus was not a member of a religion is a stretch. His mommy and daddy were...
 
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gordon 2

Senior Member
Gordie, I would tend to agree with your view on the legalist.

Seems they are always drawing favorable comparisons to others to enhance their position, rather than measuring themselves against the spotless Lamb of God.

At first glance, there appears to be a fine line between the legalist and the one who actively pursues sanctification. Perhaps the legalist has created his own stumbling block, where the one seeking sanctification is allowing God to remove all stumbling blocks. The line may not be so fine when we consider how truly different the two are.

With the greatest of respect. I have heard from a fellow saint just the other day that "santification" (a methodist-Wesleyan? concept) is often used in a legal sense. Like this: It is essential to seek and achieve santification---with the implication that this will get you in good standing with God, other saints etc... And that is the problem or the legalism.

I could say the same thing about baptism, foot washing, sacrements, the Word, speeking in tongues etc.

What is not the law as to our affiliations and being in the way, is that all have been rescued by the blood of the Lamb. We are all grafted into the family of God because of Grace. Now lets work it as church members and as individuals.
 

gtparts

Senior Member
Because the church is a Christ-ordained institution whereby Saints pool resources and gifts in order to make the Kingdom prosperous. It is not essential to salvation. But would you like to be operated on by an "I fly solo" physician or one that is associated with a college of physicians.???

Just a point. No polemics required brother. I trust the Lord is by your side, ...ask Him.

Many times the spiritual gifts are best utilized through the church for the mutual benefit of the saints, as well as the spread of the Gospel to those outside, looking in (and some on the inside,too). Sometimes individuals must work on the outside of church organization because their calling is not recognized or supported from within the church. God provides for those called in different ways.

Much of what comes from organized Christianity, in its various forms, is in conformity to God's will, but there are two issues.

The first issue is identifying and eliminating that which does not conform to His will.
The second issue is identifying and supporting those things that God does will for the church to do.
Sometimes we mistake what we want done for what He wants done. They two are NOT always the same.
 

gtparts

Senior Member
With the greatest of respect. I have heard from a fellow saint just the other day that "santification" (a methodist-Wesleyan? concept) is often used in a legal sense. Like this: It is essential to seek and achieve santification---with the implication that this will get you in good standing with God, other saints etc... And that is the problem or the legalism.

I could say the same thing about baptism, foot washing, sacrements, the Word, speeking in tongues etc.

What is not the law as to our affiliations and being in the way, is that all have been rescued by the blood of the Lamb. We are all grafted into the family of God because of Grace. Now lets work it as church members and as individuals.

Sanctification - becoming more Christ-like - is scriptural and predates Methodist - Wesleyan thought by 1800 years or thereabouts. To remove sanctification from the realm of spiritual growth and impart legal strictures upon it is beyond the pale. To even make the attempt is to negate the very meaning, as put forth in the Bible. To place a burden is not the intent or effect of sanctification, but a joy that one may be found more like the Savior each and every day of our remaining days on earth. Your fellow saint does not seem to grasp the true essence of the process.
 

Dominic

Banned
When thinking of legalists most will think of the smaller more fundamental denominations and sects - and they certainly have their share of legalists - but the largest denomination in Christianity is a denomination led by Pharisees who also practice legalism to the nth degree. I am talking about the Catholic Church. What this church offers their members is salvation by good works, by their own merits, and by grace dispensed by the ruling hierarchy of the church. The works and the merits that advance one to heaven come by keeping Jewish law or doctrines of men. This is not the Law of faith and the path to salvation expressed by Paul. It is a false path to salvation achieved through one's own effort. According to the doctrine of this church, those who do not keep the law and do not find absolution from the church will not go to heaven. They at best will go to purgatory and they will remain there for quite some time to pay for their sins unless someone else does works of merit for them to advance them through purgatory. Those who do not accept the teaching of this church or who make a grievous sin that has not been absolved by a priest of this church will simply go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.


This is Christian legalism because they support their position by twisting passages of scripture to conform to the doctrine of their church even though it flies in the face of the clear gospel of salvation through the Law of Faith. They give lip service to Protestant Christians and even call them brothers but their doctrine that cannot change (because they claim it to be infallible) still condemns these same brothers to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- unless they return to the Catholic Church. Meanwhile, they embrace those who worship in pagan religions and Catholic leaders have even said that these pagans worship the same God. They are right they do; his name in either case is Satan.



No Catholic who believes what their church tells them has any assurance of salvation. They would consider such a belief presumptuous since salvation and the promise of heaven depends on one's own actions in life and the action of others who intercede (even after you are dead to help advance you through purgatory). Thus, they deny that Jesus Christ atoned for all sin at the cross. Therefore, they have no law of faith within them.



Legalistic Catholic theologians have head knowledge of Christ but he is a counterfeit Christ (the spiritual attributes of their Christ for the most part is not found in the Bible). Their hope of salvation is established on a theology of works. It is not the free gift from God that is taught in scripture for all those who believe. In reality, there is not an ounce of difference between the legalistic Pharisees of the Jews and the legalistic Catholic hierarchy. Both the Jewish Pharisees and the Catholic theologians teach that works and ritual can earn brownie points with God. The largest denomination in Christendom gives lip service to Jesus but their doctrine proves to be anti Christ.


the Catholic Church. What this church offers their members is salvation by good works, by their own merits, and by grace. The works and the merits that advance one to heaven come by keeping Jewish law or doctrines of men. According to the doctrine of this church, those who do not keep the law and do not find absolution from the church will not go to heaven. They at best will go to purgatory and they will remain there for quite some time to pay for their sins unless someone else does works of merit for them to advance them through purgatory. Those who do not accept the teaching of this church or who make a grievous sin that has not been absolved by a priest of this church will simply go to he11--.


No Catholic has any assurance of salvation. The promise of heaven depends on one's own actions in life and the action of others who intercede (even after you are dead to help advance you through purgatory).

Their hope of salvation is established on a theology of works. It is not the free gift from God that is taught in scripture for all those who believe.



Dominic/Dawg....

Curious as to your thoughts on the section above. Tried to weed out some of the "hate" speech...as even I think it was a bit "overdone." Is the above sections not an accurate view of the Catholic Church?

This is not an accurate view nor has it ever been, as we have discussed in multiple threads trailing back to the light of creation.

Mr. Koenig’s anti-Catholicism is a slight of hand, he knows that what he is saying is incorrect but counts on the distrust or outright hate of the Catholic Church by some, to help promote his view.

The idea that he and he only he holds the truth is his main point, and if it takes some crafty wordsmithing along the way to make his point, then it is what he will use.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Many times the spiritual gifts are best utilized through the church for the mutual benefit of the saints, as well as the spread of the Gospel to those outside, looking in (and some on the inside,too). Sometimes individuals must work on the outside of church organization because their calling is not recognized or supported from within the church. God provides for those called in different ways.

Much of what comes from organized Christianity, in its various forms, is in conformity to God's will, but there are two issues.

The first issue is identifying and eliminating that which does not conform to His will.
The second issue is identifying and supporting those things that God does will for the church to do.
Sometimes we mistake what we want done for what He wants done. They two are NOT always the same.

I think that what churches, all to often, are believed to be for is practicing the great commission and often we view the church membership and leadership as what Paul advises in Timothy. These are all good. O course churches are prone to fall into what Paul tires to remedy in Galatians.

How do we know if the church is working according to what we call the will of God? Well what is God interested in? Peace? Justice? Grace? Prosperity? Healing and Health? Wisdom? What are the examples we can take from what Jesus did in his ministry and thought? I suggest that these are what would be the will of God.

The church should not be full of people who are all saved and waiting for their seats in Heaven which is "near" and yet cannot practice grace and peace when they hit the sinful world.

If Jesus is to give us life in abundance, I think our boots need to be walking our streets and our fields not to call men to Jesus per say, but rather to peace and justice...as per God's will. Our churches are a great resource for this, if we let them be.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Sanctification - becoming more Christ-like - is scriptural and predates Methodist - Wesleyan thought by 1800 years or thereabouts. To remove sanctification from the realm of spiritual growth and impart legal strictures upon it is beyond the pale. To even make the attempt is to negate the very meaning, as put forth in the Bible. To place a burden is not the intent or effect of sanctification, but a joy that one may be found more like the Savior each and every day of our remaining days on earth. Your fellow saint does not seem to grasp the true essence of the process.

I think that what was discussed was that the target can never be met. We will never measure up to Jesus if we lived 900 yrs. and our attemps to measure up gets us into the legalism of it all as far as the dynamics and hierachies of church membership usually work.
 
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