A question

[oldfella1962]

First - your point was directed at only one Writer writing an event that 3 others didn’t mention.

But…….there’s not very much detail in what us written. One can assume what it means. I’m pretty sure not very many people were in the documentary business in those days. What if it did get written by the others but was lost?

As far as what it could mean…..there are other stories in the Bible about raising the dead…..maybe it’s a revelation to show God’s promise and maybe the raised saints appeared to “many” as a sign. Maybe those “many” were other saints and the rest of the holy city wasn’t even aware - this could be a witness to them that believed in Jesus.

If it screams fiction………..I haven’t read anything on Bigfoot in over 35 years.

so the saints were invisible and only certain people could see them? The verses don't say that or even hint at that. Or maybe it was written about
by other people too but lost? Strange that all the copies (except for one) of only that one story - a story so compelling that certainly many people would have written about it, or at least talked about it until somebody wrote the story down - would be lost.

 

[oldfella1962]

In my experience it's always happened with protestant evangelicals. It's only happened to me face to face 2-3 times so my sample size is infinitesimal. I'm not counting folks on street corners with signs and megaphones etc.

It is extremely awkward when it happens. It's more or less the same as other family members that get into MLMs and have tried to recruit me into their scheme. Not intending to equate the two, but the intensity of the pitch is about the same. In at least one case I have a family member who falls into each category and will try both hard sells interchangeably which is fun.

What's more than awkward is I've regrettably lost nearly all contact with some formerly close family members over one or both of the above which is sad.

Yes, it is sad. Anything that breaks up family functioning is not cool.

 

[Spotlite]

so the saints were invisible and only certain people could see them? The verses don't say that or even hint at that. Or maybe it was written about
by other people too but lost? Strange that all the copies (except for one) of only that one story - a story so compelling that certainly many people would have written about it, or at least talked about it until somebody wrote the story down - would be lost.

I don’t think invisible.

Many people saw Hank JRs latest concert…….not everyone did.

I’m just saying maybe they appeared to those select ones that believed in Jesus.

I’m sure the population wasn’t very dense back then

However they did it (if they did) I wouldn’t think it’d been on the town square announcement at high noon “they’re here in town”.

I just think a story can be any truer just because someone else documented it and I don’t think it’s made up just because one out four did.

We’ve all seen the local news in todays time in “mystery” events. Thousands of people there and literally no one knew / saw nothing……..and there were eyewitnesses………and finally it all hangs on what this “one” told.

 

[bullethead]

I don’t think invisible.

Many people saw Hank JRs latest concert…….not everyone did.

I’m just saying maybe they appeared to those select ones that believed in Jesus.

I’m sure the population wasn’t very dense back then

However they did it (if they did) I wouldn’t think it’d been on the town square announcement at high noon “they’re here in town”.

I just think a story can be any truer just because someone else documented it and I don’t think it’s made up just because one out four did.

We’ve all seen the local news in todays time in “mystery” events. Thousands of people there and literally no one knew / saw nothing……..and there were eyewitnesses………and finally it all hangs on what this “one” told.

All other events outside of the Bible are not a good example because they are all missing the one important secret weapon inside the Bible that is touted as * infallible and inerrant which is also all knowledgeable, all-powerful and capable of anything.*

* except for the times in the Bible when it would really clear things up and would really show that a God was involved at all.*

The stories inside the Bible of God's abilities shine within the pages during all levels of fantasy yet the same level of "godness" doesn't transcend outside of those pages when answers that satisfy rational thought are needed.
These things(questions, doubts, unnoticed miraculous events,) could have all been cleared up by something that fits the definition of a god but none of it gets any more than man made attention which still leaves man to guess at possible scenarios and come up with slightly plausible explanations that are of no greater magnitude than to compare them with tens of thousands of other all human events and varying capabilities.

If the god factor cannot be shown and must be left out in order to explain god-like events, what is the purpose of having the god?

 

[oldfella1962]

All other events outside of the Bible are not a good example because they are all missing the one important secret weapon inside the Bible that is touted as * infallible and inerrant which is also all knowledgeable, all-powerful and capable of anything.*

* except for the times in the Bible when it would really clear things up and would really show that a God was involved at all.*

The stories inside the Bible of God's abilities shine within the pages during all levels of fantasy yet the same level of "godness" doesn't transcend outside of those pages when answers that satisfy rational thought are needed.
These things(questions, doubts, unnoticed miraculous events,) could have all been cleared up by something that fits the definition of a god but none of it gets any more than man made attention which still leaves man to guess at possible scenarios and come up with slightly plausible explanations that are of no greater magnitude than to compare them with tens of thousands of other all human events and varying capabilities.

If the god factor cannot be shown and must be left out in order to explain god-like events, what is the purpose of having the god?

* except for the times in the Bible when it would really clear things up and would really show that a God was involved at all.*

That falls under "divine hiddenness" I think. I could be wrong, but the Biblical God doesn't always show everything to everybody because that would take "faith" out of the equation. We have to be purposely searching for God to see Him. Yes, to me that's confirmation bias, but maybe I'm not thinking about it with a godly attitude, I am thinking with a "worldly" attitude. That said maybe that is why when God flooded the planet not all cultures & societies noticed the event. In other words, those societies that were growing rice in East Asia before, during and after the time when the Flood occurred - around 4,000 years ago according to most Fundamentalists.

 

[bullethead]

* except for the times in the Bible when it would really clear things up and would really show that a God was involved at all.*

That falls under "divine hiddenness" I think. I could be wrong, but the Biblical God doesn't always show everything to everybody because that would take "faith" out of the equation. We have to be purposely searching for God to see Him. Yes, to me that's confirmation bias, but maybe I'm not thinking about it with a godly attitude, I am thinking with a "worldly" attitude. That said maybe that is why when God flooded the planet not all cultures & societies noticed the event. In other words, those societies that were growing rice in East Asia before, during and after the time when the Flood occurred - around 4,000 years ago according to most Fundamentalists.

A god that needs humans to fill in the blanks with maybe's, possibly's, If's, and a thousand other excuses why such a god can't or didn't is not the god that is claimed by those same people. All encompassing,all capable, all everything leaves no room for gaps filled with varying excuses depending upon who is asked.
Truth welcomes questions because it can answer them with facts.

 

[oldfella1962]

A god that needs humans to fill in the blanks with maybe's, possibly's, If's, and a thousand other excuses why such a god can't or didn't is not the god that is claimed by those same people. All encompassing,all capable, all everything leaves no room for gaps filled with varying excuses depending upon who is asked.
Truth welcomes questions because it can answer them with facts.

And even if the "facts" turn out to be wrong - or incomplete - we have a "jumping off point" and a process to see where/why the facts are wrong, or what we can research to improve the accuracy or importance of the facts.

There are 4,000+ religions. But for argument's sake, let's say that there are ten major religions. Each religion provides a pathway to "the truth" as defined by that religion, but exclusive to that religion. But what if there were ten vastly different "scientific methods"? Or ten different versions of Germ Theory, the Theory of Gravity, or Evolutionary Theory - with their proponents of each claiming they were the only "true version" yet operating under different principles? Nearly the entire world would literally be in the Dark Ages.

 

[Spotlite]

All other events outside of the Bible are not a good example because they are all missing the one important secret weapon inside the Bible that is touted as * infallible and inerrant which is also all knowledgeable, all-powerful and capable of anything.*

* except for the times in the Bible when it would really clear things up and would really show that a God was involved at all.*

The stories inside the Bible of God's abilities shine within the pages during all levels of fantasy yet the same level of "godness" doesn't transcend outside of those pages when answers that satisfy rational thought are needed.
These things(questions, doubts, unnoticed miraculous events,) could have all been cleared up by something that fits the definition of a god but none of it gets any more than man made attention which still leaves man to guess at possible scenarios and come up with slightly plausible explanations that are of no greater magnitude than to compare them with tens of thousands of other all human events and varying capabilities.

If the god factor cannot be shown and must be left out in order to explain god-like events, what is the purpose of having the god?

Men have their own ideas of what clear is and focus inside those parameters with men defined teens such as “rational”. He said He’d blind the unbeliever……..I would be foolish to think I could in thinking I could unblind them.

The scripture has a spiritual meaning - but that’s not acceptable to those looking fir tangible and historical facts based on what man call facts and have determined how and when they’ll believe something.

Edited: an example here is scripture says they appeared before many. The critics automatically assume a zombie invasion and everyone in town saw / talked to them. Critics are hoping to draw attention to 3 other writers didn’t write about it…….so it’s not true or they’re conflicting.

The facts are no one knows how many dead were arose and how many “many@ saw them and who those “many” are.

Ultimately it’s a story that you either believe God could have caused or you don’t. I don’t see it humanly possible. A Deity such as God….yes……hunan…..no.

 

[Spotlite]

And even if the "facts" turn out to be wrong - or incomplete - we have a "jumping off point" and a process to see where/why the facts are wrong, or what we can research to improve the accuracy or importance of the facts.

There are 4,000+ religions. But for argument's sake, let's say that there are ten major religions. Each religion provides a pathway to "the truth" as defined by that religion, but exclusive to that religion. But what if there were ten vastly different "scientific methods"? Or ten different versions of Germ Theory, the Theory of Gravity, or Evolutionary Theory - with their proponents of each claiming they were the only "true version" yet operating under different principles? Nearly the entire world would literally be in the Dark Ages.

Yea and you have to remember you keep looking for sources and documentation outside the Bible……

Jesus wasn’t a big deal back then. Other than a small circle in the latter part of His 3 year ministry he wasn’t exactly a works famous celebrity. He was rejected by the Jews and hung on a cross by the soldiers.

Who ya think would be bold enough to document a societal outcast known by few like that?

Customs of those days wouldn’t allow it.

You’re left with nothing but faith - either believe it or don’t.

Are you trying to convince yourself you’re right?

 

[bullethead]

Men have their own ideas of what clear is and focus inside those parameters with men defined teens such as “rational”. He said He’d blind the unbeliever……..I would be foolish to think I could in thinking I could unblind them.

The scripture has a spiritual meaning - but that’s not acceptable to those looking fir tangible and historical facts based on what man call facts and have determined how and when they’ll believe something.

Edited: an example here is scripture says they appeared before many. The critics automatically assume a zombie invasion and everyone in town saw / talked to them. Critics are hoping to draw attention to 3 other writers didn’t write about it…….so it’s not true or they’re conflicting.

The facts are no one knows how many dead were arose and how many “many@ saw them and who those “many” are.

Ultimately it’s a story that you either believe God could have caused or you don’t. I don’t see it humanly possible. A Deity such as God….yes……hunan…..no.

So what you're saying is that it is just as likely as many graves burst open and were seen by many people as it could be for a few and a few.
I think low key and vague while totally open to interpretation is definitely the way to go when trying to win followers and silence critics.

 

[WaltL1]

Yes, it is sad. Anything that breaks up family functioning is not cool.

Its especially sad when you consider families are getting broken up over something that may or may not be entirely man made.
Why cant believers just say "this is something I believe in but it may or may not be true so I'll just believe for myself".
This supposed "go forth and cram it down others throats" command/excuse is lame.

 

[WaltL1]

Men have their own ideas of what clear is and focus inside those parameters with men defined teens such as “rational”. He said He’d blind the unbeliever……..I would be foolish to think I could in thinking I could unblind them.

The scripture has a spiritual meaning - but that’s not acceptable to those looking fir tangible and historical facts based on what man call facts and have determined how and when they’ll believe something.

Edited: an example here is scripture says they appeared before many. The critics automatically assume a zombie invasion and everyone in town saw / talked to them. Critics are hoping to draw attention to 3 other writers didn’t write about it…….so it’s not true or they’re conflicting.

The facts are no one knows how many dead were arose and how many “many@ saw them and who those “many” are.

Ultimately it’s a story that you either believe God could have caused or you don’t. I don’t see it humanly possible. A Deity such as God….yes……hunan…..no.

The critics automatically assume a zombie invasion

 

[oldfella1962]

Men have their own ideas of what clear is and focus inside those parameters with men defined teens such as “rational”. He said He’d blind the unbeliever……..I would be foolish to think I could in thinking I could unblind them.

The scripture has a spiritual meaning - but that’s not acceptable to those looking fir tangible and historical facts based on what man call facts and have determined how and when they’ll believe something.

Edited: an example here is scripture says they appeared before many. The critics automatically assume a zombie invasion and everyone in town saw / talked to them. Critics are hoping to draw attention to 3 other writers didn’t write about it…….so it’s not true or they’re conflicting.

The facts are no one knows how many dead were arose and how many “many@ saw them and who those “many” are.

Ultimately it’s a story that you either believe God could have caused or you don’t. I don’t see it humanly possible. A Deity such as God….yes……hunan…..no.

Yes if there is a binary choice of "God can do this - it happened" versus "The laws of physics do not allow this - it did not happen" then the details or symbolism or whatever will coalesce around these two foundations.

 

[Spotlite]

Yes if there is a binary choice of "God can do this - it happened" versus "The laws of physics do not allow this - it did not happen" then the details or symbolism or whatever will coalesce around these two foundations.

But if there’s a God…….do you think He’s bound to physics? He was here before men discovered physics.

 

[Spotlite]

So what you're saying is that it is just as likely as many graves burst open and were seen by many people as it could be for a few and a few.
I think low key and vague while totally open to interpretation is definitely the way to go when trying to win followers and silence critics.

Lol I’m saying there’s a possibility it could be low.

BTW old timers around here can tell you stories of a local flood where graves washed open. Sone thought the rapture had happened. They too, appeared before eyewitnesses. The text in question is supposedly about an earth quake, too.

 

[oldfella1962]

Its especially sad when you consider families are getting broken up over something that may or may not be entirely man made.
Why cant believers just say "this is something I believe in but it may or may not be true so I'll just believe for myself".
This supposed "go forth and cram it down others throats" command/excuse is lame.

While not a "break up the family" situation, there was this awkwardness in my family (sort of): my mother-in-law was a Mormon as a child then years later began attending Protestant (mostly Baptist) churches on Sunday but that's about it - very typical. She of course cherry-picked the Bible (so she would have some authority for judging people) but never really studied the Bible per se. Anyway, when one of her nephews married a Japanese woman and became a Buddhist, she constantly brought up the fact that Buddhism was evil, and he was going to the hot place when he died. I think she accused my son-in-law of being an atheist from time-to-time also because he had no interest in religion, and thus was going to the hot place too. I attended church with my wife if only to keep my mother-in-law off my wife's back. My wife's motivation was out of a sense of duty and guilt more than anything, and my motivation was to support my wife because it meant something to her. My wife (and mother-in-law) would not be intellectually capable of getting into a deep discussion about religion, so why press the issue? So I suffered through the hour or so of church service weekly.
Eventually my wife lost interest in attending church completely and I don't see that changing. Now what my daughter & son-in-law are doing with any religious things with their kids? That is entirely their business.

 

[oldfella1962]

But if there’s a God…….do you think He’s bound to physics? He was here before men discovered physics.

I don't believe in the Biblical God nor any other gods from the many other religions. They are all without a doubt man-made products of the fertile human imagination. But there could be a god! There is just no evidence of one. There are just conflicting claims of gods spread across the planet.

Maybe the actual god created the universe using the "natural" processes that we do have evidence for. Would this god be bound to the laws of physics? I would say "yes". If not, we would see occasional glitches when this god "drops the ball" during his interactions with the natural/reality-based world and cosmos. I would also think that this god would have zero interest in being "worshipped" because that seems to a petty, childish, narcissistic human emotional need.

 

[oldfella1962]

Lol I’m saying there’s a possibility it could be low.

BTW old timers around here can tell you stories of a local flood where graves washed open. Sone thought the rapture had happened. They too, appeared before eyewitnesses. The text in question is supposedly about an earth quake, too.

The earthquake doesn't bother me since that is a very natural occurrence. Did it happen at the exact same time as Jesus getting crucified? Also a natural occurrence BTW. But I can see how these two separate events would be conflated as to happening simultaneously when stories about it started to spread. Could an earthquake knock bodies out of tombs? It sure could, and I certainly can imagine how those stories would be embellished into bodies walking around! Stories like that get made up in 2023 CE - in the form of "urban legends"! But that said none of this adds up to anything supernatural/spiritual in any way, shape or form. It's just humans creating and spreading stories "based on a true event" and becoming fiction.

 

[bullethead]

But if there’s a God…….do you think He’s bound to physics? He was here before men discovered physics.

*if

 

[bullethead]

Lol I’m saying there’s a possibility it could be low.

BTW old timers around here can tell you stories of a local flood where graves washed open. Sone thought the rapture had happened. They too, appeared before eyewitnesses. The text in question is supposedly about an earth quake, too.

Did any of those locals happen catch glimpses of spirits flying about? Big difference.