A question

[bullethead]

But if there’s a God…….do you think He’s bound to physics? He was here before men discovered physics.

Why would a creator dumb his creation down or make it less than his talent could muster? We/Universe are the results of the available possibilities. It makes more sense to think that "we" are the best that a god could do with all of his/it's capabilities because what binds us has bound him. We are living in and the Universe exists within his creative limits.

 

[oldfella1962]

Why would a creator dumb his creation down or make it less than his talent could muster? We/Universe are the results of the available possibilities. It makes more sense to think that "we" are the best that a god could do with all of his/it's capabilities because what binds us has bound him. We are living in and the Universe exists within his creative limits.

And there is no way that humans are created in "gods" image because humans are pretty smart, but we are nothing special. We are definitely not "running a universe" special! Humans are "in the image" of the Biblical God who couldn't defeat an enemy tribe because they had chariots of iron.
If that doesn't scream "written by warring Bronze Age desert dwellers" I don't know what does.

Joshua 17:18: “But the mountain country shall be yours. Although it is wooded, you shall cut it down, and its farthest extent shall be yours; for you shall drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots and are strong.”

Judges 1:19: “So the Lord was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron.”

 

[bullethead]

And there is no way that humans are created in "gods" image because humans are pretty smart, but we are nothing special. We are definitely not "running a universe" special! Humans are "in the image" of the Biblical God who couldn't defeat an enemy tribe because they had chariots of iron.
If that doesn't scream "written by warring Bronze Age desert dwellers" I don't know what does.

Joshua 17:18: “But the mountain country shall be yours. Although it is wooded, you shall cut it down, and its farthest extent shall be yours; for you shall drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots and are strong.”

Judges 1:19: “So the Lord was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron.”

Yeah I mean if "we" are made in the image of a particular God I wonder which "we" is the closest. I would almost hope that made in the imagine of means general looks and tones because if human ways are a representative of a god(which the actions and emotions etc) then it seems to me we created a god in our image.

 

[oldfella1962]

Yeah I mean if "we" are made in the image of a particular God I wonder which "we" is the closest. I would almost hope that made in the imagine of means general looks and tones because if human ways are a representative of a god(which the actions and emotions etc) then it seems to me we created a god in our image.

I can't envision humans being made in the physical image of any god because if that were the case, then would the long chain of primate evolution be "part of the plan" for the eventual modern Homo Sapiens version that we are now? In other words Neanderthals, Homo Erectus, and all our other close cousins physically resemble modern humans, so are they made in god's physical image too? Where would we draw the line of "in god's image"?

 

[Spotlite]

Why would a creator dumb his creation down or make it less than his talent could muster? We/Universe are the results of the available possibilities. It makes more sense to think that "we" are the best that a god could do with all of his/it's capabilities because what binds us has bound him. We are living in and the Universe exists within his creative limits.

No one said were dumbed down. I’m saying we as nan developed a system called science and said we’re staying within those parameters.

 

[bullethead]

No one said were dumbed down. I’m saying we as nan developed a system called science and said we’re staying within those parameters.

As far as being created in an image of a god (which I take as being similar in not just looks but also emotions, feelings, actions, and morals etc) I would say that as a whole humans would almost have to be the results of either not the best possible creative works OR a purposely dumbed down version of the existing deity.
Do you think the human species is representative of the best possible work a god could do?

 

[oldfella1962]

As far as being created in an image of a god (which I take as being similar in not just looks but also emotions, feelings, actions, and morals etc) I would say that as a whole humans would almost have to be the results of either not the best possible creative works OR a purposely dumbed down version of the existing deity.
Do you think the human species is representative of the best possible work a god could do?

Oh my goodness I sure hope not! If humans are at the top of the Great Ape evolutionary totem pole (rather than somewhere in the middle) *
I would call it mission failure. We have so much potential (in theory) but do incredibly violent and ignorant things on a regular basis. We are our own worst enemy as a species and very often as individuals.

But if we take the Biblical God as the true "one and only God" then we are indeed very much in His image! Inconsistent, irrational, jealous, homicidal, hair-trigger temper, vengeful, psychotic, brutal, etcetera.
Very much a guy that you would cross the street to get away from!

* in another 100,000 years or so there might be a more evolved Hominid species and we will be extinct or at the very least not at the top of the heap

 

[WaltL1]

Yeah I mean if "we" are made in the image of a particular God I wonder which "we" is the closest. I would almost hope that made in the imagine of means general looks and tones because if human ways are a representative of a god(which the actions and emotions etc) then it seems to me we created a god in our image.

then it seems to me we created a god in our image.

That ^^.

 

[oldfella1962]

That ^^.

Agree! I will reference my "list of creator gods" in another AA&A thread.
Different societies & cultures have different versions of what image of "god" best suits their society & culture. I'm not a genius, but I think that my logic is sound and arguably accurate.

 

[Spotlite]

As far as being created in an image of a god (which I take as being similar in not just looks but also emotions, feelings, actions, and morals etc) I would say that as a whole humans would almost have to be the results of either not the best possible creative works OR a purposely dumbed down version of the existing deity.
Do you think the human species is representative of the best possible work a god could do?

No I do not think we are the best possible work He can do. I think we’re made with limitations.

If I were a creator, my creation would not be able to outthink me and I would not allow myself to be limited to its capabilities.

I don’t know if that’s how a God thinks but it’s how I think.

 

[bullethead]

No I do not think we are the best possible work He can do. I think we’re made with limitations.

If I were a creator, my creation would not be able to outthink me and I would not allow myself to be limited to its capabilities.

I don’t know if that’s how a God thinks but it’s how I think.

There wouldn't be a need to out think a god, but his standards seem low. Sounds like "make it good enough and let the next guy worry about it" standards when guys are flipping houses. I just cannot find where the God-factor comes in when and where a God is supposed to be involved. The human factor outweighs the god factor by a large margin.

 

[Spotlite]

There wouldn't be a need to out think a god, but his standards seem low. Sounds like "make it good enough and let the next guy worry about it" standards when guys are flipping houses. I just cannot find where the God-factor comes in when and where a God is supposed to be involved. The human factor outweighs the god factor by a large margin.

I can see your point and agree if I think in terms that He’s fictional.

But, I also understand, or at least say I do…….why He’s superior. Being superior, there’s no equal.

I see or tend to believe the God factor is there when thing are out of our control. Things we can’t “fix”…you attribute those things as nature if I understand you correctly.

 

[bullethead]

I can see your point and agree if I think in terms that He’s fictional.

But, I also understand, or at least say I do…….why He’s superior. Being superior, there’s no equal.

I see or tend to believe the God factor is there when thing are out of our control. Things we can’t “fix”…you attribute those things as nature if I understand you correctly.

I am not saying that a god would or should necessarily make humans equal, but much, much better than what we are. Like, it bothers me that according to the Bible God was unhappy with his own work and had to start over....a Few times already to try and seemingly still fail to get what he wants....then punish the people for doing what he designed them to do!!!
The story is insanity put to paper.

 

[Spotlite]

I am not saying that a god would or should necessarily make humans equal, but much, much better than what we are. Like, it bothers me that according to the Bible God was unhappy with his own work and had to start over....a Few times already to try and seemingly still fail to get what he wants....then punish the people for doing what he designed them to do!!!
The story is insanity put to paper.

Ahh gotcha. Yea that used to get to me, too.

But after enough study that’s when I realized that God gave us a choice in the batter when it comes to serving Him or not. Outside the other obvious issues “no fair to hold me accountable for just not believing in Him”…..

The way I see it without getting too deep in the weeds…….God allows us to goof up….the cost of that is sin…

I’m not one that believes I’m exempt from wrong. I believe I can be tempted of things and say no.

Edited: and if I say yes…….there’s a price tag with it. I don’t have to say yes or no. Seems as the people He was not pleased with mostly went with choosing to follow after their own lusts.

But…..that’s just my opinion.

 

[bullethead]

Ahh gotcha. Yea that used to get to me, too.

But after enough study that’s when I realized that God have us a choice in the batter when it comes to serving Him or not. Outside the other obvious issues “no fair to hold me accountable for just not believing in Him”…..

The way I see it without getting too deep in the weeds…….God allows us to goof up….the cost of that is sin…

I’m not one that believes I’m exempt from wrong. I believe I can be tempted of things and say no.

He doesn't allow us choice without consequences.
It is all contradictory.
Make Adam and Eve, give them Free Will, watch them fail and then punish every human since. How could their failure be a surprise? He should know every action before it happens!
Watch all those sinners thrive after A&E. He gave them all Free Will but gets himself into a huff and drowns them all because again he is unsatisfied with what he KNOWS how they were going act eons before any of them were born.
He decides to save 8 "righteous" people who are exactly what he wanted. They breed and repopulate the world and all of their Free Will offspring go right back to doing the same stuff that got the last batch drowned for doing what they chose. So, God says...well I'll create myself as my Son and have the people kill him so I can forgive them for all of their sins!
Great, wonderful. It's done! Finally!
Wait, NOPE! Now the Free Will people who were "saved" need to worship the guy they killed or else they will spend eternity either in a fiery pit of constant torture or an eternity (nobody knows where) without the presence of God.

This is literally insane and the story of a sociopathic monster even if remotely true.

 

[Spotlite]

He doesn't allow us choice without consequences.
It is all contradictory.
Make Adam and Eve, give them Free Will, watch them fail and then punish every human since. How could their failure be a surprise? He should know every action before it happens!
Watch all those sinners thrive after A&E. He gave them all Free Will but gets himself into a huff and drowns them all because again he is unsatisfied with he KNOWS they were going act eons before any of them were born.
He decides to save 8 "righteous" people who are exactly what he wanted. They breed and repopulate the world and all of their Free Will offspring go right back to doing the same stuff that got the last batch drowned for doing what they chose. So, God says...well I'll create myself as my Son and have the people kill him so I can forgive them for all of their sins!
Great, wonderful. It's done! Finally!
Wait, NOPE! Now the Free Will people who were "saved" need to worship the guy they killed or else they will spend eternity either in a fiery pit of constant torture or an eternity (nobody knows where) without the presence of God.

This is literally insane and the story of a sociopathic monster even if remotely true.

Well……..would you prefer to be a robot or go fishing when you want?

It’s no different than regular laws……do you prefer to keep your God given rights (no pun intended) or go on a shooting spree? You have that choice.

 

[bullethead]

Well……..would you prefer to be a robot or go fishing when you want?

It’s no different than regular laws……do you prefer to keep your God given rights (no pun intended) or go on a shooting spree? You have that choice.

You are talking apples and lawn rakes.
Those examples could not be more different than what the Biblical God does.

God would tell me that I don't have to be a robot and that I absolutely can choose to go fishing and then throw me in a dungeon one second after the bait hit the water to be tortured for eternity.

You are stuck on 2 options.
The ability to do what you want but pay for it for eternity if God does not approve. It isn't a shooting spree. Nobody gets hurt or killed. The punishment does not fit the crime. In fact there is no crime.
Option 3 would be, have the choice to not worship anything or anyone and die without any rewards but also no punishment. Is God THAT petty?

 

[Spotlite]

You are talking apples and lawn rakes.
Those examples could not be more different than what the Biblical God does.

God would tell me that I don't have to be a robot and that I absolutely can choose to go fishing and then throw me in a dungeon one second after the bait hit the water to be tortured for eternity.

You are stuck on 2 options.
The ability to do what you want but pay for it for eternity if God does not approve. It isn't a shooting spree. Nobody gets hurt or killed. The punishment does not fit the crime. In fact there is no crime.
Option 3 would be, have the choice to not worship anything or anyone and die without any rewards but also no punishment. Is God THAT petty?

Good points……but if we’re Hid creation……we don’t get to exactly decide the rules.

I understand the argument “if” but I do believe He exist.

 

[oldfella1962]

No I do not think we are the best possible work He can do. I think we’re made with limitations.

If I were a creator, my creation would not be able to outthink me and I would not allow myself to be limited to its capabilities.

I don’t know if that’s how a God thinks but it’s how I think.

That makes sense I guess. One look into how one of the Biblical Gods * thinks: God brought down the Tower of Babel because the humans got organized and started working together/cooperating, building a tower so tall it could eventually reach heaven. God can't take that risk! God said (paraphrasing) "let us go down and confound their language. For now that they are working together, nothing that they imagine will be out of their reach".

* yes one of the Biblical Gods. Judaism started out polytheistic. Depending on which book of the Old Testament we are reading, God might sound like he is part of a pantheon of Canaanite gods ("let us go down and confound their language") or he is the only God. That's why God has different names (Yahweh, Elohim, etcetera) in different books and why his "personality" and behavior is all over the map depending on the book or story. Yahweh was originally the sky god of war & anger, popular in the norther tribal areas. El (singular for Elohim) was the god of thinking & planning, popular in Judah, the southern tribal areas. Other Canaanite gods were around too. Eventually, the Yahweh tribes became dominant through warfare, and the characteristics and roles of the other gods were incorporated into the Yahweh character to become the "God" of the Old Testament, who was then everything all in one singular God. He could do it all and was emotionally complicated to match - angry, vengeful, loving, kind, jealous,
slow to anger, quick to anger, patient, impatient, you name it.

But think about this: because Judaism had a complicated & long development - and the Old Testament is a collection of many books written when different gods were referenced and followed - and different tribes had different motivations and reasons to slant stories in different ways - it's no wonder that the Old Testament is so full of contradictions, errors, embellishments, inconsistencies, etcetera. Considering the technology & communications available at that time, in that geographical region, combining so many myths from so many different influences, it's a very ambitious and influential work of fiction!

 

[oldfella1962]

You are talking apples and lawn rakes.
Those examples could not be more different than what the Biblical God does.

God would tell me that I don't have to be a robot and that I absolutely can choose to go fishing and then throw me in a dungeon one second after the bait hit the water to be tortured for eternity.

You are stuck on 2 options.
The ability to do what you want but pay for it for eternity if God does not approve. It isn't a shooting spree. Nobody gets hurt or killed. The punishment does not fit the crime. In fact there is no crime.
Option 3 would be, have the choice to not worship anything or anyone and die without any rewards but also no punishment. Is God THAT petty?

Yes, God is apparently that petty because the whole point of creating mankind was because he wants to be worshipped. Ergo, the biggest "sin" - and the only sin that Jesus cannot forgive - is not worshipping Him both in this world and the next.
So from God's perspective, being the most law-abiding and charitable, helpful, loving, perfect father & husband on the planet still gets you a seat on the hot-place express unless you worship Him.

As for option #3 I could not agree more! No eternal reward, no eternal punishment, just leave me alone when I die! Because if I'm an atheist (or worship one of the other thousands of deities across the planet) you have one less worshipper - one monkey doesn't stop the show - get over it. But why send me to eternal punishment? At that point it is not punishment, it is revenge. God hates "sin" - I get that. Stealing, lying, adultery, murder, all those things are bad for society and the species, but Jesus/God forgives these things. But not worshipping properly affects nobody walking this planet in any way. And this is just one religion! There are thousands more across the planet with equally disturbing ideas. Is this really something that humanity needs to hang onto for the duration of Homo Sapien's existence?