Adultery is NEVER OK

I absolutely believe in free will. I'm just saying that if God knows which choice we are going to make between 2, then we obviously don't have the ability to make the other one.
Since I believe I have the choice to decide between the 2, I don't see where anyone is going to know which choice every single person is going to make in every single instance.
Furthermore I don't see how anyone could know WHAT God knows. Like its first hand knowledge or something.
I understand what you are saying, the Word was with God before Creation. The plan was already there. God had already seen or caused what was gonna go down in the Garden. It matters not whether He saw it or allowed it. He knew the outcome before hand, the Word was with God, already slain.

Another example, if I go to my closet to choose between my red and blue shirt, God already knew my choice. How could I then choose, at that point, the other color?

The reality is that since God has seen and knows our choices, free will is the same as predestination.

Let's look at who God saves. If God chooses who he sends to the Son or has already seen who chooses the Son, it's the same thing. No one can be saved who God has already seen rejecting him.
 
If you had five kids drowning, would you try or at least wish to save all five or just the ones you knew that you were gonna save before they were drowning?
wrong question....

God's will is that none would perish, but all would come to repentance.

I really don't see how God knowing ahead what you will choose limits your choice. Just because He knows, doesn't mean the choice is not there for you to make. It's not like He takes the choice away. You still have to choose. God doesn't sit in heaven with an angel marking down on paper, saying 'Innie, Minnie, Minee, Mo, I choose this one, and off to **** you go.'

It is YOUR choice. YOUR decision. God just happens to sit outside the time/space barrier that we dwell in, and sees the future just as you see the past. He knows what you chose before the choice was set before you because for God, the future is already the past.

God was before time began. He created time, so He is not bound by time. For God, next year happened last week, and last week happens today. There is no barrier. God is the ultimate time traveler. That is why He can be everywhere all at once. Your tomorrow already exists in Gods knowledge because God has already been there, done that. Along with your next week, your next month, next year and eternity.
 
I absolutely believe in free will. I'm just saying that if God knows which choice we are going to make between 2, then we obviously don't have the ability to make the other one.
How does God knowing what choice you are going to make mean you have no choice. It's still your choice. God knew Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit, but it was still THEIR choice to do so. Me knowing you are going to speed in your vehicle doesn't make me culpable for your decision to do so. That's what I'm NOT understanding about your reasoning: How does God knowing what choice you will make, make him culpable for your decision. It's still you're decision. You decided.
 
I really don't see how God knowing ahead what you will choose limits your choice. Just because He knows, doesn't mean the choice is not there for you to make.
Yeah. That's the line of thinking I can't seem to grasp either. It flies in the face of reason and is totally refuted by scripture.
 
19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live

Regarding free-will: it doesn't get much clearer than this.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
wrong question....

God's will is that none would perish, but all would come to repentance.

I really don't see how God knowing ahead what you will choose limits your choice. Just because He knows, doesn't mean the choice is not there for you to make. It's not like He takes the choice away. You still have to choose. God doesn't sit in heaven with an angel marking down on paper, saying 'Innie, Minnie, Minee, Mo, I choose this one, and off to **** you go.'

It is YOUR choice. YOUR decision. God just happens to sit outside the time/space barrier that we dwell in, and sees the future just as you see the past. He knows what you chose before the choice was set before you because for God, the future is already the past.

God was before time began. He created time, so He is not bound by time. For God, next year happened last week, and last week happens today. There is no barrier. God is the ultimate time traveler. That is why He can be everywhere all at once. Your tomorrow already exists in Gods knowledge because God has already been there, done that. Along with your next week, your next month, next year and eternity.
I agree!!

“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”


“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live”
 
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I agree!!

“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”


“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live”
That word poses a big problem to a select few who are strict predeterminism.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
That word poses a big problem to a select few who are strict predeterminism.
The problem with predeterminism is this -
The Lord told David that IF he stayed in the city of Keilah the people of that city would hand him over to Saul. David did not stay in Keilah and Saul did not capture him.

Jesus said that the cities of Tyre, Sidon, Sodom and Gomorrah “would” have repented IF had they had seen Jesus' miracles. He knew what would have happened if the miracles would have been performed in those cities.

In each of these instances God showed his knowledge of potential events. Although these events did not happen they would have happened had circumstances been different.


The problem with predestination is this -

We are all predestined, chosen and selected - “ALL”, every man is created in His image. He chose man to commune with. Unfortunately, deception exist. A space for repentance is given for a reason.

When all scripture is used as should be, they’d learn that an all knowing God is just omniscient, not pre programming or predesigning some to fail or picking the ones to burn. To push that doctrine requires many scriptures to be overlooked.
 
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I think what we may see as a problem is not what God sees as a problem. If I had foreknowledge that my son was going to have a wreck and die on his way to camping, I would stop him from going.
If God does it, it would be for His glory and His plan. He did know who would choose Him and who wouldn't. He did know that Adam would introduce sin into the world and therefore send many to eternal death. God did know that Israel would follow through with Rome to let him send His only Son to die for our sins.
To us having foreknowledge seems terrible but to God, it's just part of His job description.
 
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Israel

Senior Member
I cannot help but wonder when one reads Paul, or better, what Paul was given to understand (and distributed for our understanding) if it is with the sense that he is merely throwing his hat into the ring with his opinions...sort of giving his 2 cents worth; or whether he really had an insight (revelation) into how all had worked, been working toward that one thing he (by his own testimony) sought above all.

Some would say Paul is difficult and so, even conceding to that, for some moments let us turn to the words of the One Paul proclaimed (in truth? each has their opinion) who is sometimes said to be "plainer".

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The very first sentence of that, how can it be deciphered? Can it be?
Among "women born" none is greater...but...a place is where the least is greater than he. Moses is not greater, David is not greater, nor Abraham, none of the "other" prophets are greater, nor Kings, (than John) nor any host of others that might be considered. And still...a "least" of a different "place" (we might ask who considers there/considered there Himself the least) is greater than he. (Do you see the Servant?)

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John"

All is concluded under under a thing now shown subject to a superiority of fulfillment which is to be seen and known...even through the proclamation that even the very least of that "elsewhere" is greater. Do you see the Servant? (And please do not think Paul found Jesus "easily" apart from revelation of a thing irreconcilable apart from the Spirit...Messiah/King...as humblest servant.)

What else was (to Paul) dependent upon a revelation of Jesus Christ for reconciling? If not everything? The law. The prophets. How could all serve to this fulfillment apart from viewing God as some sort of trickster, some sort of double dealing Creator giving instructions that ultimately never began to touch (by reduction of necessity) the sacrifice of His son? Paul saw the script...flipped. What once appeared "one" way...was suddenly now seen in a totally different light...a light that showed God speaking a very different language (always spiritual) to what assumed it understood it, not knowing its own estate. And to the very end of revealing to those so assuming and presuming (even particularly amongst those to whom those spiritual instructions were given) their own presumptuous estate of understanding.

Paul saw. Paul was given to understand what seemed all of paradoxical...why speak to what could not understand? Why tell to "do" what the thing cannot do? All was in preparation, all was in order perfectly for the revelation of Christ coming in the flesh in the fullness of time.

God remains blameless. The man cannot say "you didn't tell us" or "you told us knowing we would not understand."

Then, why did you? Presume to understand? (God knows)

Why would you tell us what is right knowing we have no capability to either truly recognize it nor perform it? (Would man have God instead lie...about what is right? It doesn't matter, He will not)

Then what was the "thing" working in you that led you to believe you could "do it"?

But Paul saw. They why and how the necessity of Christ (and no less...ever...than Christ) was for the taking away of this "thing" causing such mistranslation in man.

And Paul was clear about that great gulf Jesus Himself mentions that no bridging can accomplish except in Himself alone..."that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit". It is absolute, unbreakable, irrefutable...to the very absolute. There is no place for relativity here, though from "one side" it is seen so...the flesh. Some men appear better, some worse, some more, some less. But as Christ says, and Paul comes to understand...all is perfectly divided...and Paul came to understand this through Jesus Christ and His revelation of perfection, and the perfection of His revelation.

Christ is not "better" in the sense men understand of relativity in comparison (though He surely is better) He is better in the absolute sense of His sole occupation of that "better place". And if there is a matter of clarity in Jesus Christ at all, it is to this very matter of absolute(s) that are never left for equivocation.

What has this to do with "free will" or its erroneous conflating with choice? (For none has denied man's ability to make choices)

In the living now...not where "free" or "freedom" is seen as relative, or relatively understood (or to be)...where Christ alone is life...(and absolutely so, life also not being "relative"... anymore than truth is) the man may understand (as Paul did) that though there may be many "choices" in seeming exercise amongst that which is born of the flesh...the very strict limits of "freedom" of will there (what do you call what has limits upon its freedom...but "not free?") are proscribed completely...even purposely (by God) in service to the revelation of His son.

"The creation being made subject to vanity...by Him who subjected it in hope..."
What does that mean to anyone?

A tree guarded by a flaming sword turning every way in prevention:

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

What man can "will himself" past? What man will celebrate what he believes his "freedom of will" (remember we speak now as spiritual men in absolutes) to choose the cross...over 12 legions of angels...and still be blameless? (He testifies His Father would grant them...would God do unrighteously "if" so?)

See, the natural man celebrates his freedom of will and choice and would try to drag it into a Kingdom to even show he has made "the right one". You don't understand? Too severe? Too abasing? Put God in a "bad light"? Then...one simply does not see how the full sum of all man's choices have already done so much more than that to the blaspheming of His name.

Paul said (how do you read Paul? Faithful? A mere speculator given to speculations about the Lord? Just another religious mouthpiece?) the first is of the earth...and earthy, ( I have little doubt, no none) that Paul...thinking spiritually after the seeing of Christ, would ascribe anything to that man as "free" in any absolute terms.
Even Paul was quite plain to declare he could not "will himself" to do what is right...even if he agreed it was the very right thing. Hobbled, hampered, crippled by a thing over which he had no power to remove from himself...what would you call a "will" that cannot accomplish itself? Would you call that "free"...or of the most severe bondage...it cannot even recognize it is not?

Think again.

And think on Christ's words (are they in any sense at all to any...absolute?) "who the Son sets free is free indeed".

And

"If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free"


God chooses whom He will. The only man who could possibly be unhappy with this is the man who doesn't (yet, to whatever measure) appreciate God's Chosen One. As being of His sole choosing...alone.

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. KJV


Lo, My servant, I take hold on him, My chosen one -- My soul hath accepted, I have put My Spirit upon him, Judgment to nations he bringeth forth. YLT

Paul got to a very severe place...through his revelations of the absolute in and through Christ...

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Their feet are swift to shed blood:

Destruction and misery are in their ways:

And the way of peace have they not known:

There is no fear of God before their eyes.

A "free will" would be a will free to will itself to good.
Adam has to hear (let him who has ears to hear, let him hear)


Are you seeing where all your own choices have led?

Would you be free?


Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?



They started as believing.

They ended wanting to stone Him.


They didn't like hearing there was never anything "free" about themselves.
 
Thread starter #56
Am I the only one out here who is meeting more and more men who are involved in ongoing adultery who consider themselves Christians?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Am I the only one out here who is meeting more and more men who are involved in ongoing adultery who consider themselves Christians?
No you’re not. But it’s more than ongoing adultery that folks are involved “ongoing” who consider themselves Christians.
 
Am I the only one out here who is meeting more and more men who are involved in ongoing adultery who consider themselves Christians?
and more and more women.

and more and more people are fornicating with no thoughts of it being wrong, unwise and unhealthy. We have raised a generation that proclaims ' If it feels good, do it' and ' Why not, everyone else is doing it' . They have no thoughts of the perils that they subject themselves to every time they jump in a bed.

I tried my best to warn my sons and daughters about these traps. Some listened. Some didn't. One in particular now understands that because they have a child together, they are tied together until either they pass away, or the child passes away. They can no longer live an independent life. Everything they wish to do has to pass the tests of....

1. is it good for the child

2. do I have the child during the time I wish to do this

3. if I don't have the child, will the other parent allow me to have them

4. what happens when the other spoiled parent changes their mind at the last moment and their selfishness hurts the child.
 
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