Adultery is NEVER OK

Also and let's use me for this example. If God has looked into my future and knows that I will never except him, why would he need to turn me over to a reprobate mind?
That does not seem very just in the eyes of man. If I can never again change my mind. If my eyes will never be given another chance to see. If God never ever again leads me to His son.

The problem lies in us trying to make or see God as just. Man trying to justify God being just in all and everything is wrong. God is just. Trying to justify God's justice is not even possible for us to do even if we wanted to. But why would we even want to. Who am I to ask of God? What does God owe me?
This idea of God looking into our free will future and thinking He bases His decisions on that is a man made way of trying to justify God's justice. There is nothing in scripture that says God did this to Pharoah or Esau based on what their future actions would be. God did it because he is an all powerful God that does everything for His own glory. He doesn't need to be justified by humans as being just. He is just because He is God. We don't really need to even try and justify God's justice.
 
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Spotlite

Senior Member
Why do you continue to provide the very Scriptures that soundly refute your position?

I know why.
It doesn’t refute my position. You’re going to have to overlook many scripture as the one below to support yours -

“While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation”

You’re looking at it as if they have perished because God didn’t allow them to receive it. That entire chapter tells us differently, they believed not because they had pleasure in unrighteousness, not because they had no choice.

He’s not unjust so works of good or bad doesn’t have anything to do with him being all knowing that’s also scripture.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Also and let's use me for this example. If God has looked into my future and knows that I will never except him, why would he need to turn me over to a reprobate mind?
That does not seem very just in the eyes of man. If I can never again change my mind. If my eyes will never be given another chance to see. If God never ever again leads me to His son.

The problem lies in us trying to make or see God as just. Man trying to justify God being just in all and everything is wrong. God is just. Trying to justify God's justice is not even possible for us to do even if we wanted to. But why would we even want to. Who am I to ask of God? What does God owe me?
This idea of God looking into our free will future and thinking He bases His decisions on that is a man made way of trying to justify God's justice. There is nothing in scripture that says God did this to Pharoah or Esau based on what their future actions would be. God did it because he is an all powerful God that does everything for His own glory. He doesn't need to be justified by humans as being just. He is just because He is God. We don't really need to even try and justify God's justice.
We are not trying to make God anything. It’s written in black or red ink. There is nothing in scripture that tells you a rapture will take place either, but the event is described. By saying that there are those that are programmed to fail is saying he is an unjust God. You’re trying to prove he’s unjust but actually describing him unjust and trying to justify that by saying he can do what he wants. Yeah he can do what he wants, he does, but he’s not unjust with it. Refusing a man a choice is not just and he doesn’t do that, ever. No where is it written that a man was created to fail.

Looking at it scripturally with him being all knowing and already knowing the choices a man will make, and choosing those that he knows will serve him to use to show his power and accomplish his work is not unjust. It’s using broken tools. He’s not basing his decisions and works off your actions, he’s choosing to use your work and actions at his discretion. Every unrighteousness man isn’t and wasn’t ever used to do this.

That’s what they meant with questioning Jacob verses Esau. Neither of their works dictated anything to God on what he’s doing. He chose to use them. They thought he was unjust because no good or bad had been done yet. He will have mercy / compassion on whom he has mercy / compassion on - there’s no mercy for the evil doers, matter of fact he says this -

“Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;”

They were wanting mercy for Esau.

That reads exactly what I’ve been saying. - men refused, they didn’t listen - “choices”


“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient”
 
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Spotlite

Senior Member
Let's use Paul for an example using Thessalonians.
Paul received not the love of the truth, that would save him.
So God will cause Paul to be greatly deceived, and he will believe these lies.

Now did God do this to Paul because he looked into the future and saw that Paul would never accept Him? Was at any point Paul turned over to a reprobate mind? Would God be just if he looked into the future and saw that Paul would never accept Him on his on and turn him over to a reprobate mine or did God open Paul's eyes so that he could see?

It's almost like you are saying that God looks into our futures and turns us all over to reprobates because he sees the we will never be His and he looks into the future and sees which ones of us will be His and then opens the eyes of only those.
Again if that is your definition of free will, how is that any better or more just than God choosing by some other plan?
Would God be just if he looked into the future and saw that Paul would never accept Him on his on and turn him over to a reprobate mine or did God open Paul's eyes so that he could see?

It's almost like you are saying that God looks into our futures and turns us all over to reprobates because he sees the we will never be His and he looks into the future and sees which ones of us will be His and then opens the eyes of only those.
Again if that is your definition of free will, how is that any better or more just than God choosing by some other plan?
I’m only saying that a just God isn’t going to leave a man choice-less. We question that as fairness because we were created in his image.

But what you’re asking is part of having mercy / compassion on whom he will have mercy on. I don’t know if he turns every man over to a reprobate mind or not. I know scripture says it happens.

I think he saw that Paul could do a mighty work for him. I do think Paul could have turned a deaf ear. Just like David could have stayed and been handed over. I don’t believe Esau was a reprobate, I believe Esau still had a choice to serve God in righteousness. I believe Judas could have repented. Jonah ran at first.

It’s my understanding that the continuous refusal of God’s calling is what iands you in the reprobate mind situation - not just I didn’t listen this time. And it’s my belief that if my unrighteousness can be used by God to demonstrate his power, it could still affect me enough that I might hear his voice.

I think we are thinking more alike than you think. I just see that for God himself to show he’s not unjust, his all knowing allows him to know who’s not going to give him their life under any circumstances. I think he knows who needs a Damascus road experience to believe. I think he knows there are those that if he revealed himself face to face to, they still wouldn’t believe. He knows those that only need a few verses, he knows those that need years of struggling alcohol in order to hear that one message.
 

Israel

Senior Member
We are not trying to make God anything. It’s written in black or red ink. There is nothing in scripture that tells you a rapture will take place either, but the event is described. By saying that there are those that are programmed to fail is saying he is an unjust God. You’re trying to prove he’s unjust but actually describing him unjust and trying to justify that by saying he can do what he wants. Yeah he can do what he wants, he does, but he’s not unjust with it. Refusing a man a choice is not just and he doesn’t do that, ever. No where is it written that a man was created to fail.

Looking at it scripturally with him being all knowing and already knowing the choices a man will make, and choosing those that he knows will serve him to use to show his power and accomplish his work is not unjust. It’s using broken tools. He’s not basing his decisions and works off your actions, he’s choosing to use your work and actions at his discretion. Every unrighteousness man isn’t and wasn’t ever used to do this.

That’s what they meant with questioning Jacob verses Esau. Neither of their works dictated anything to God on what he’s doing. He chose to use them. They thought he was unjust because no good or bad had been done yet. He will have mercy / compassion on whom he has mercy / compassion on - there’s no mercy for the evil doers, matter of fact he says this -

“Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;”

They were wanting mercy for Esau.

That reads exactly what I’ve been saying. - men refused, they didn’t listen - “choices”


“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient”

By saying that there are those that are programmed to fail is saying he is an unjust God.

I think that thinking in those terms could be part of the issue.

Do you see that there can be no argument able to stand against God's perfect plan?

Everything in creation...(including) both believer and unbeliever fulfill God's design to His glory in His Son.
 
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Spotlite

Senior Member
By saying that there are those that are programmed to fail is saying he is an unjust God.


I think that thinking in those terms could be part of the issue.

Do you see that there can be no argument able to stand against God's perfect plan?

Everything in creation...(including) both believer and unbeliever fulfill God's design to His glory in His Son.
I see that those saying he’s programmed those to fail is not scripture. It goes against everything he went to the cross for. He went for ALL. I don’t find where he’s programmed any to fail, I find where it’s offered to every man. I find where he knows who will or won’t.

The rest, yes I’d agree. His work is accomplished by believers and non believers.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
It doesn’t refute my position. You’re going to have to overlook many scripture as the one below to support yours -

“While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation”
Why would I overlook a passage that I agree with? Why do you imagine that passage to be trouble for me? Are you still focused on the "if"?

That passage doesn't address free-will(freedom relative to God) at all.
Who will hear His voice?
How will they hear it?
Why and how and for what purpose would they decide to harden their hearts? What is the cause of their decision?

This is addressed elsewhere in Scripture. See if you can find it.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
I see that those saying he’s programmed those to fail is not scripture. It goes against everything he went to the cross for. He went for ALL. I don’t find where he’s programmed any to fail, I find where it’s offered to every man. I find where he knows who will or won’t.

The rest, yes I’d agree. His work is accomplished by believers and non believers.
He did not go to the cross because of the fall. The fall is because Christ is going to the cross.

Does that help at all?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Why would I overlook a passage that I agree with? Why do you imagine that passage to be trouble for me? Are you still focused on the "if"?

That passage doesn't address free-will(freedom relative to God) at all.
Who will hear His voice?
How will they hear it?
Why and how and for what purpose would they decide to harden their hearts? What is the cause of their decision?

This is addressed elsewhere in Scripture. See if you can find it.
What exactly is your stance? Does man have a choice or not?

I don’t use man’s labels - free will. I use them to communicate here with those that do but Im not a label person.

Harden not your heart means what to you?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
He did not go to the cross because of the fall. The fall is because Christ is going to the cross.

Does that help at all?
My point is he went to the cross so that ALL would have access.
 

Israel

Senior Member
He did not go to the cross because of the fall. The fall is because Christ is going to the cross.

Does that help at all?

The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world...

[manifest in these last days for us.]
 
I’m only saying that a just God isn’t going to leave a man choice-less. We question that as fairness because we were created in his image.

But what you’re asking is part of having mercy / compassion on whom he will have mercy on. I don’t know if he turns every man over to a reprobate mind or not. I know scripture says it happens.

I think he saw that Paul could do a mighty work for him. I do think Paul could have turned a deaf ear. Just like David could have stayed and been handed over. I don’t believe Esau was a reprobate, I believe Esau still had a choice to serve God in righteousness. I believe Judas could have repented. Jonah ran at first.

It’s my understanding that the continuous refusal of God’s calling is what iands you in the reprobate mind situation - not just I didn’t listen this time. And it’s my belief that if my unrighteousness can be used by God to demonstrate his power, it could still affect me enough that I might hear his voice.



I think we are thinking more alike than you think. I just see that for God himself to show he’s not unjust, his all knowing allows him to know who’s not going to give him their life under any circumstances. I think he knows who needs a Damascus road experience to believe. I think he knows there are those that if he revealed himself face to face to, they still wouldn’t believe. He knows those that only need a few verses, he knows those that need years of struggling alcohol in order to hear that one message.
Why doesn't God give all of us a Damascus road? That's the same thing as saying God doesn't call everyone. Looking back in history, has God called every person to salvation as he did Paul or me or you?
If God calls by whom he foresees answering, why did he need to do what he did to let Paul see? Why not let everyone see?
 
My point is he went to the cross so that ALL would have access.
What is your take on Ephesian 2:12 in relation to those that were without God and without hope? How were they able to see God and seek salvation before the Cross and before Paul revealed his mystery?
Do you realize how many people have died never hearing the gospel from another man? I'm assuming you see this as unjust in some sort of strange way.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Why doesn't God give all of us a Damascus road? That's the same thing as saying God doesn't call everyone. Looking back in history, has God called every person to salvation as he did Paul or me or you?
If God calls by whom he foresees answering, why did he need to do what he did to let Paul see? Why not let everyone see?
I think we all do have it when our eyes open. I’m only meaning that it takes more drastic measures in some cases.,
 
I see that those saying he’s programmed those to fail is not scripture. It goes against everything he went to the cross for. He went for ALL. I don’t find where he’s programmed any to fail, I find where it’s offered to every man. I find where he knows who will or won’t.

The rest, yes I’d agree. His work is accomplished by believers and non believers.
What's your take on Romans 11? What was the basis God used to choose a Remnant and hardening the rest to let the full number of Gentiles come in? Do you again think God looked forward and chose the ones that would eventually choose him? Then he hardened the rest of Israel based on him knowing they would not choose Him? Whose eyes are still closed to this very day? Generations of blinded souls? Never having a choice based on their parents?
 
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