Anyone into the Hebrew roots of Christianity?

[Artfuldodger]

James says that if you truly believe, it will show, just as it did with Abraham. It wasn't enough for Abraham to just believe God, it took him going all the way to that mountain and tying Isaac up and attempting to kill him before God said, "Now I see your faith".

I think you're reading too much into this. If you have God's spirit (Romans 8:9) then you will have Spirit fruit.

It's basically the same thing the Election crowd is telling me. Salvation is from grace alone. No amount of works can save me. No one comes to Christ except who the Father sends.

Therefore, if I can't save myself, the fruits of obedience are just proof that my salvation "took." If one doesn't then it's proof the seed of God, didn't "take."

The ability to produce fruit is the proof of who God actually Elected. That there is no possible way one who has the seed can sin like the devil.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Then again, if someone who has salvation can become a prodigal son. We have to assume that even with the seed of God giving us power, we still fail.
I can't necessarily say that when a Christian backslides it is proof that he didn't receive the seed. I can't make the claim that God never knew him. It's not proof to me that he isn't saved.

It may take the alcoholic a lifetime to quit sinning. The homosexual may never overcome his sin.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

That's why I'm glad God gets to do the judging We should judge others for sinning differently than we do.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Within Christianity, does God give us an A for effort? Is repentance actually to quit drinking or just to wish you could?

I like to use lust vs adultery or hatred vs murder. Can one just wish he didn't have lust in his heart or anger towards a fellow man?

Is just wishing we could change considered repentance?

Paul presents this "list" of sins that says it will keep individuals from inheriting Kingdom. Then he says;

"And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

What is this actually saying? Could one truly be washed and still a drunkard? Could a washed Christian become greedy?

Maybe the "washing" means we can't become anything that will keep us out of the Kingdom. Maybe it means that every single person washed in the blood of Christ was once one of them on that list.

Then again, it could mean that if you are still performing sins on that list, you never actually received the washing. If so then there really aren't that many of us that are going to enter the Kingdom.

Yet salvation is by grace alone. Or is it?

 

[Artfuldodger]

That's why I'm glad God gets to do the judging We should judge others for sinning differently than we do.

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Just by judging someone for sinning makes us just as guilty. So how do we as Christians judge others differently as to not condemning ourselves?

Therefore and to a point, if we hate, we are guilty of murder. If we lust, we are guilty of adultery. Yet we and you mentioned this in your sermon, can only see what a brother does outwardly.

So when we look out over a congregation, we are only seeing a small amount of their sinning nature.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

Within Christianity, does God give us an A for effort? Is repentance actually to quit drinking or just to wish you could?

I like to use lust vs adultery or hatred vs murder. Can one just wish he didn't have lust in his heart or anger towards a fellow man?

Is just wishing we could change considered repentance?

Paul presents this "list" of sins that says it will keep individuals from inheriting Kingdom. Then he says;

"And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

What is this actually saying? Could one truly be washed and still a drunkard? Could a washed Christian become greedy?

Maybe the "washing" means we can't become anything that will keep us out of the Kingdom. Maybe it means that every single person washed in the blood of Christ was once one of them on that list.

Then again, it could mean that if you are still performing sins on that list, you never actually received the washing. If so then there really aren't that many of us that are going to enter the Kingdom.

Yet salvation is by grace alone. Or is it?

Blessings come with obedience. Salvation is a gift as long as we believe. This is my personal opinion, albeit educated guess, but I believe that believers who continue in sin will not INHERIT REWARDS....but that they still have eternal life. Maybe I'm way off base, though.

Numerous places, including from the Lord's own mouth, it says that we will be GREAT IN HEAVEN for obeying God's commands. It's also out ticket into the new Jerusalem. Only those who obey God's commands will enter in through one of the gates that, BTW, are for the tribes of Israel.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Blessings come with obedience. Salvation is a gift as long as we believe. This is my personal opinion, albeit educated guess, but I believe that believers who continue in sin will not INHERIT REWARDS....but that they still have eternal life. Maybe I'm way off base, though.

Numerous places, including from the Lord's own mouth, it says that we will be GREAT IN HEAVEN for obeying God's commands. It's also out ticket into the new Jerusalem. Only those who obey God's commands will enter in through one of the gates that, BTW, are for the tribes of Israel.

I've heard it explained that way but what about the resurrection of the evil vs the righteous? The separation of the sheep and goats based on their works?

I'm OK with just scootin' in. I mean I'd like the extra rewards but just to make it in would be better than everlasting death. So you think the washing will get me in but the obedience will get me rewards?

I'm not sure that is what 1 John 3 is saying. I'll give it another read.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

I agree with you, Art. There are things that Jesus (and others) said that implies that "practicing lawlessness" will equal ****ation. I Cor 5 talks about the destruction of a Christian brother who is in willful sin. Hebrews 10:26 warns believers that continued willful sin will bring destruction. But then again, Romans 10:9,10 makes salvation seem like the easiest thing to grab, and only requires a one-time confession with the mouth, not matter how you live the rest of your life.
I, though, want Him proud of me. And, I truly love Him, so I will obey Him. It's probably sort of like Paschal's Wager, but from an obedience standpoint: If I "waste" the rest of my life obeying Him out of love, and not trying to earn anything, and I get to heaven and He says, "You really didn't need to obey Me since I really don't care if people sin anymore (sarcasm intended) but you still get eternal life!", I've lost nothing. BUT, if He rewards those who love Him and obey from the heart, then I've gained IMMEASURABLY MORE than Joe-blow Christian.

 

[Artfuldodger]

What about faith being enough?

Romans 4:13-17

13It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

What is righteousness that comes by faith?

 

[Artfuldodger]

not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham.

It sounds like Paul is making a distinguishing remark.

"Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham."

"He is the father of us all."

"He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not."

 

[LittleDrummerBoy]

My wife and I were part of a Messianic congregation for several years in Colorado, and we occasionally attend a Messianic congregation in N Ga. I also catch their message every week via video. It's good teaching and a valuable part of my spiritual life, even though the Messianic group is not really our "home" congregation at the present time.

We've found that there are a lot of good, faithful people in the "Hebrew roots" movement. They do tend to have a variety of beliefs, but we've always been welcomed warmly. We've tried to be loving and learn from their strengths rather than battle over areas of disagreement. On the whole, it seems that we have about as much in agreement and commonality with the Messianic group as we have with the Southern Baptist church that is currently our main fellowship, and also that we have with Free Chapel that we've attended a number of times and whose teachings we also appreciate via various media formats.

For me it all comes down to Scripture. If they are serious about the word and obeying with zeal, then I can appreciate and learn from their ministry. By the time one has been a disciple for 30+ years, there are going to be some areas of disagreement with just about any established ministry. One can figure out how to bless each other or be a solo act.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

I agree, LDB. I hesitate to classify myself as "Hebrew Roots" but someone on the outside looking in would certainly say that I was part of that "cult" lol Some in the movement have started believing they can have multiple wives, or stopped believing in Jesus as the Messiah, etc. I consider myself part of the "sect of the Nazarenes" that Paul (re: Epiphanius 4th century) was part of.... a believer in Jesus but running from lawlessness.