Assumptions, explanations, and the material universe as analogous and metaphorical

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Israel

Senior Member
The simplicity we long for is here in Christ.
Yet, enduring the work of having all our assumptions torn down to the simple...is...simply painful. But God does not despise this bearing with Him, and in truth it counts dearly to Him.
Nevertheless, He is not dissuaded from being relentless in His work.

 
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Israel

Senior Member
For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.
 
"I really can't do a good job, any job, of explaining magnetic force in terms of something else that you're more familiar with... because I don't understand it in terms of anything else that you're more familiar with."

Israel, thanks for that!
Nothing is known by analogy; therefore, knowledge of God is necessarily supernatural?
 
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Israel

Senior Member
I have tried unsuccessfully to trim down the vid to that portion following GEM's quote at 6:12...to where he says

"for example if we were to say the magnets attract like as if they were connected by rubber bands I WOULD BE CHEATING YOU!"
and then reiterates he would be cheating..."very badly" to use that which is itself subject to these forces as an explanation of the forces.

It is not that magnetic forces (or the exertion of electrical energies) act like rubber bands...it is precisely because of those forces rubber bands act as they do. The forces are the fundamental...

As the some of us that do...(and I am made very aware I am surely not alone) do speak to what calls itself "of christianity". And the those of us who do speak thus are very aware of how many assumptions/presumptions are therein contained.

Firstly...that even such a thing as "christianity" exists and can be "spoken for". Or even further (God forbid) should be spoken for. (Let the apologists glance around to see what stones are available for throwing; it's their assignment for now)

Just as Paul came to understand the vast difference between the being of a "Jew" and Judaism (one might go so far as to say it is all the difference there is, if one were to be so bold) so too happily are those of you who...by refusing to cheat!...keep me directed to the straight and narrow path. The yeasty things that grow out of a lump must always be addressed lest one who is "of Christ" be found cheating. And I too would be cheating if found honoring you to an excess of flattery.

Yet, the giving of honor "where honor is due" is a delightful call and calling. It is not grievous. On the contrary such recognition (being made able to recognize the work of God in a believer) is both sobering (lest we begin to feel like Elijah setting himself up for rebuke)...but also, as said...wonderful reminder God has kept to Himself a 7,000 which can be a great comfort in fellowship.

We there discover a great mystery in Christ...that suffering...that exceeding "tension" coming to bear in a man...(unbearable except by God's Christ) found in the compelling to be right with God, yet not without an equal compelling to leave no brother "behind". But there can be no cheating. No indulgence of man, nor softening of the call of God. The perfect meeting the all imperfect in a man has manifestly taught us outcome...death. Christ the fuse...holding on one hand (so to speak) the gajillion volts of God's righteousness and on the other "those whom thou hast given me"...refusing to let go of either to "save Himself" (Think ye not I cannot now call upon the Father for 12 legions of angels?). All of heavenly power meeting (in a man) all the grounding out (in holding to his earthy brothers).


It was not that Christ Himself held any imperfection in Himself...it was we of whom He refused (and refuses) to "let go of"...that brought into Himself that which was the "ground". (Do any doubt he entered the very "heart of the earth?"...let them look and see...if they find in themselves a place untouched or untouchable by the Christ of God)

But does Christ poor mouth? Even make anything of this? Ha! Our champion is all of victory (weep not for me but for yourselves!) the very self which thinks in any manner the will of God is odious! "I do only what I see the Father doing"...and our savior! Our savior! Finds no place of pity nor pitying for that! Is there suffering? God knows! God knows what "passes for" suffering...and what the perfection of it is!

And yes...the perfect is all and only what satisfies God. Even evil...judged to perfection. Perfectly separate from that all He approves in His son. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ.

Members of christianity must be offended as they find their ground being stripped from them. That thing...recognizable by the world, referred to by the world...easily contained in the world's knowing of it as thing...must and will give way in every disciple for

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not."
No man need set about to make this so. No man need strive to be peculiar...strange (even a stranger to himself at times)...no, this has already been accomplished in and by Christ.

And there's absolutely nothing to be pitied about it.

But it can be recognized...this stripping away work of God...and appreciated rightly in those who have seen the cost in accepting "Let God be true and every man a liar"

Those who have labored (through a labor not their own) to understand that high call (and most humble concession of God found only in Christ) to "let God" be true...is to accept his place as no more nor less than "every man".

For only then can this begin to be appreciated...let alone gloried in...


But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ;
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
Nothing is known by analogy; therefore, knowledge of God is necessarily supernatural?
Yes, our own methods will always arrive at a natural phenomena conclusion. God saw to it that the natural man can never succeed.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God"
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
It is interesting that God thought by analogy. By definitions (here) Jesus was lecturing to the choir and the lessons can only be correctly received by the choir. At best the analogies of Jesus can only pick at the hearer's imaginations if the hearer is not of the choir. On the other hand they can and do serve to the choir that they got their God things right because the analogies require something prior to themselves to be fluid in meanings or logical.

The analogies describe a state of being to the choir and a state of wanting to be to others. To the first they affirm and give assurance and to the second they un-assure and possibly disarm.

So the wisdom of a "natural" man is his known state of wanting to be vs the wisdom of a Godly man which is his known state and assurance that he is un-wanting-- that by a "God given heart of flesh", a gift God spiritually promised, truth is the priori of the analogies of Jesus. What is this truth?

The analogy were love and truth are synonymous to provide a significant difference in one's state is a supernatural gift needed prior to the lessons in scripture and by which everything will eventually be known to the new natural man. His former natural state was but shut-off to what he has become.

Therefore knowledge of God and man and accompanied wisdom derive from the supernatural whereby its own internal analogy that truth and love are one and therefore it follows by analogy within--that the new Adam is the default new natural man. One is born again to this or you is not.
 
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Thread starter #8

Israel

Senior Member
Jesus explained, “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive'”




But without a parable spake He not unto them
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Jesus explained, “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive'”




But without a parable spake He not unto them
At some point, before Pentecost did some of the disciples understand the parables? It seems to me that some were explained possibly in hopes they would catch the drift or that it was possible for some before Pentecost to understand with assurance what was heard.

It is very interesting that Jesus could sort out where a person was spiritually. It is as if he could effortlessly understand an individual or individuals like they were an opened book or as we can and yet with efforts, understand the Song of Songs. For us man's book is often and more than not veiled from us-- but it was not to Jesus.
 
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Thread starter #10

Israel

Senior Member
At some point, before Pentecost did some of the disciples understand the parables? It seems to me that some were explained possibly in hopes they would catch the drift or that it was possible for some before Pentecost to understand with assurance what was heard.

It is very interesting that Jesus could sort out where a person was spiritually. It is as if he could effortlessly understand an individual or individuals like they were an opened book or as we can and yet with efforts, understand the Song of Songs. For us man's book is often and more than not veiled from us-- but it was not to Jesus.

I think you hit it.

It seems to me that some were explained

Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.” Mt 15:15

But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34


And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Mt 13:10...

It all so often seems counter-intuitive. To me at least. And so if I am rightly accused of often using too broad a brush, and thinking myself far more than I really am, (which I am quite convinced is true, and could have no defense) at least in this instance, I speak only for myself.

It appears disciples "stick with the Lord"...even when stupid (my own confession) and presumptuous. (And God knows my true estate...of whether I only imagine in my vanity I am myself "stuck"...for vanity is another matter of which I have no defense) But that's what I see, regardless...

They come...even if their original inclination was for a "something"...to Jesus but then (in my case) slowly begin to realize "I really need all this fellow has!" Not some teaching, not some insight, not some better understanding...but this man...Himself. All of Him.

And so the disciples come to Jesus for explanation. They ask, they seek, they knock, they bother Him...pester Him, always hungry for more...of Him...until...a thing kinda gets that "of" into better perspective. Yes! What He gives out "of Himself" is most valuable, no lie, always beneficial, cannot be gainsayed...but to the end of giving (if one can understand as I have a hard time often seeing) Himself.

Here's my parable.

Jesus is teaching on how to install a 50 amp breaker. And I hear "you connect the ground to the bus bar, the other two wires to the double pole breaker in the box and there it is."

So, I go, do as He says and BOOM...my screwdriver touches the side of the box as I tighten the lug. Flash bam boom! The screwdriver practically explodes, I get blinded momentarily, scared outta my wits, a small burn where the arc leapt to my finger...and am quite dismayed afterwards.

I return to Jesus. "I did as you said...I did this and that and boom...now look at my finger!"

"Oh, I can fix that" He says...

But also..."did you hear all that I said?" "Especially the part about coming to me? And STAYING with me?"

"I would have told you to make sure the breaker was in the off position but it looks like you assumed you knew what you heard and knew what you were doing"

"But I did as you said, Lord..." I reply.

"OK, was any of that wrong?" He asks.

"Well...no. In fact now I see I was very careless in even handling that screwdriver thinking I knew...even how to use and control a screwdriver! I mean...it's like such a "basic" tool!"


What a silly parable!

But...I think. And I think now...not alone. And I think...was there a lesson, is there a lesson? And Lord...was the lesson that was really needed NOT (for which I attended to you by my motive and desire) to know how to install a breaker...or was the lesson "Teach a man who does not even know what he thinks he already knows...that he really does not even know...what he thinks he knows?"

I mean...wow! What a way! Who and how could anyone teach that? How'd you do that Lord? How'd you...know?

It is very interesting that Jesus could sort out where a person was spiritually. It is as if he could effortlessly understand an individual or individuals like they were an opened book
It's really not for me to speculate "how many" hear and walk away saying "OK, I got it Jesus!...I know what to do now...heard your sermon, read your book, get the gist of it...gimme a helmet and put me in the game"

No. (Even despite all my inclinations to be so!)

It's become more and more...and even more "Jesus what are you really talking about?" "What about all those places I have already read and thought I understood...but don't...really...or have even been quite content to accept what others think and say about them? That doesn't work for me anymore. I need...you"

See? I don't even know what I don't know...but think I do. Presumption blinds me to my own estate. Getting shocked often wakes me up. Or at least...so I think...but really...do I even know that?

Now...I admit this sure sounds like a borderline despair if not a whole hearted recital.
How then can you know...anything? (I don't even know how to "stay" with Jesus!)

But how else would could a truly wise man teach a man who is so used to his own resourcefulness for all trust, so used to thinking he knows...so inclined to himself...that there really is Another...to be all his trust?

Some folks seem to be unashamed (and truly Christ has made man to be so) to remind me they "taste" my desperation. Whether it is described as "desperate for attention"..."desperate to have others think he knows a lot by his many words"...even so desperate by many confessions to be the one in that place of "Methinks he protests (too) much"...and I cannot disagree one iota.

All that I could secure myself with, even all that I once did, and have, and may yet continue to hold in some misguided trust...a thief has come through and pilfered. And even if its not all gone yet...I see someone soiled it. I would be a liar to say I am not provoked to see its vanishing and so easily disrespected soiling...angered at times, vexed at times...even railing at the thief some times...handling "my stuff" with such disregard!

But I may be coming to know Him. And He is telling me...even asking me to consider..."What do you think (and He pleads with me to think about it!) you will have...what will be left, what is the only thing irremovable when finally all other 'things' are gone?" What is left...? What is, Who is...what cannot be moved...and irremovable?

O...but what a strange way you are Lord! I came to you for a "this"....when all the time you knew...all the time you knew! What I need.

It is very interesting that Jesus could sort out where a person was spiritually. It is as if he could effortlessly understand an individual or individuals like they were an opened book
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

I am in desperate need of knowing that blessed MAN.

Even so, come Lord Jesus!

God help me! But may I be found where "no self respecting man" might be!

Other wise I am cheating...and cheating...very badly...as a man recently reminded me.
 
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