Bulldogs

[crackercurr21]

idk much about them i am trying to learn about dogs and breeding and line breeding and such but i know of a guy named sarge not sure of real name but lived just outside gainesville fl and he had what he called swamp cur it was a almost pure white dog with very bullish figure and attitiude with cur dog drive heart and stamina. his kennel name was "almost home kennels" if anyone has info on sarge please pm me

 

[MULE]

Bulldogs, that's just what they were called in the Southeast. People started realizing there was money to be made in Registering and creating new breeds. That's when you seen American bulldogs, Olde English Bulldogge, White English Bulldog ect and ect.

Alapaha Blue Bloods and Bully Pits are some of the newest creations. The Alapaha Blue Bloods already have a ridiculous story. In about 20 years there will be some stupid --- story about how the Bully Pits was found in someones family and they were the only ones that had it.

 

[bigmike82]

Hoghunter,
They are my old dogs, now both deceased. The female(red) is the mother to the white one, out of applegates vader red x kouras whoopie the pooh. Good first bulldogs.

Crackercur,
Thank you for bringing up Sarge. Tomorrow I will get into my take on the ab, web and the whole lot.

 

[bigmike82]

Bulldogs, that's just what they were called in the Southeast. People started realizing there was money to be made in Registering and creating new breeds. That's when you seen American bulldogs, Olde English Bulldogge, White English Bulldog ect and ect.

Thank you so much for bringing this up, it needed to be brought up again.

 

[bigmike82]

Ok, here goes it. I apologize now for it being so long winded.

I do not buy the claims that their is an actual breed of bulldog called the White English bulldog, and here is why. First and foremost, it has already been said here it was just a generic name for any buldog type dog with a brindle body and white head or white body. I dont buy it because, as already stated here, people realized how easy it was to make a $ by creating new names for everyday things, coming up with fake and romantic histories AND it is very easy with a ittle know how, to make any breed of dog already in existance, and ill prove it.

I do not believe the history that goes with the web being the direct descendant of the now extinct alaunt. The alaunt is an extinct running mastiff. It was supposedly brought here by the spanish and english hundreds of years ago, and have been instrumental in the WEB. The fact that they went extinct over 150yr ago leads me to believe this is false. The claim is backed by the WEBs ability to open its mouth wider than other dogs and that is a trait of the alaunt blood, and it went along with this picture

The claim that the WEB has been kept pure without the infusion of other breeds in small pockets on the florida panhandle, georgia and alabamas back woods, and now up in ohio doesnt make sense, because there would have to have been a very large population of these dogs to be able to sustain a healthy population. I find it funny that people on the florida panhandle, backwoods of geogia and alabama and ohio havent heard of them if they are so prevelant and so great of a dog. I also find it extremely coincidental that when the AB's popularity and sales started to diminish, the new extremely old and pure WEB started to take hold. Also, just about all of these breeders who have the supposed WEB aso keep AB and APBT at the same time. That in itself shows me that these claims of the supposed superiority of these dogs to be false, otherwise there woud be no need for these breeders to keep more than just the WEB, unless they are in it for the money. I also find it very suspect that these early settlers would take a dog who could potentially hit the 100lb mark due to sheer logical constraints. How could the dirt poor homesteaders and trailblazers have afforded to spend what little money they had or take extra time and effort to feed such a big dog, when the family itself was struggling to eat. Why would they take 1 dog with 1 set of teeth, ears and eyes when they could have taken 2 or even 3 of the smaller and much more useful and efficient Cur type or hound type dogs, who could not only hunt down and dispatch quarry, would guard the home and family with serious conviction, and 3 of the smaller dogs having more teeth, eyes and ears would still live longer, eat less and be able to work harder making life easier on the homesteaders. Not only that, they could reproduce the working dogs that helped them so much because they had mutiple dogs, instead of having to shell out some money or trade some goods for another single dog. These WEB are supposed to be all around farm style working dog, yet by many accounts they have to be taught to bite and HOLD, which doesnt constitute a bulldog in my mind. They are supposed to be catch dogs par none, yet they arent holding and preferring to bay the quarry. They are supposed to be able to dispatch an adversary as a slashing kill dog, but if it wont commit to a bite or to the fight yet more comfortable to bay or bark, they cant bark an enemy to death. Bulldogs are not slashing dogs who bite and rebite, but hounds and curs are. People say they are purest when they have little or no coloring and have blue eyes. Well, that in itself is false, because bulldogs were ALWAYS brindle, fawn or dark colored dogs. It wasnt until the White English TERRIER was infused to the blood and then bred upon and inbred on, that the white started to take over. White, as you may or may not know, is simply a marking, like a chest or face blaze, that kept expanding over generations and consumes the body, and leaves only a patch or saddle of color. In reality, a dog with a color patch and majority is white, is actually a colored dog with a white marking. These supposed WEB are suposed to be family guardians, yet many of these sites say things along the lines of "show me a southern farmer who walks arond in scratch pants, and then ill believe the WEB was bred to be a family guardian". How can a dog who is supposed to take on all manner of threat when facing its family who doesn have human aggression or not supposed to have human aggression, be a family guardian? I have been told by some WEB people you need special tools to TEACH the WEB HOW to bite..... how to bite.... That goes against everything that a bulldog is. I should have to teach a bulldog to NOT bite everything in its path of vision. I am perfectly fine teaching a bulldog where to bite or how to target, but to have to teach a bulldog it is not only ok to use its jaws, but how, does not set well at all.

Here is what I honestly think these WEB realy are. Nothing but excess dogs breeders have and needed to sell. Dogs, like has already been stated, are of no special breeding or consequence and just got a handle by the people keeing them. I believe as member here has stated, were just any white or brindle and white bulldog type dog running around the farms and woods. I believe many of these WEB are nothing more than PIT or AB cross dogs, and here is why. A member here brought Mr Sarge who created the swamp cur. He created it using Bull Mastiff, Catahoula cur, APBT and AB. I have a friend who went to Sarges with his cousin to get a dog and then noticed these huge white bulldog looking dogs, asked sarge what they were, said they were swamp curs. Needless to say they passed on the deal and werent impressed with the swamp curs cuz yould get bulldog looking dogs whod bay, cur lookin dogs whod catch and everything inbetween. Now, i mentioned that to talk about the "georgia giant" strain of WEB talked about on bttbab. Those dogs are supposedly LGD(livestock guardian dogs) directly descended from Spanish Mastiffs. What I really believe happened is, Sarge sold his Swamp Curs to some unsuspecting people fr $100 or $150 and they grew up, were bred and selected for certain traits, most noticed is size, and what is said to happen is they have thicker fur, feathering on the tail and rear legs and excessive dew lap reacing 140lbs. Johnson ABs have continuous addition of St Bernard(which would account for the thicker fur and feathering) English and Bullmastiff(accountig for the massive bone index, head size and dew lap) and alsoLGD like Great Pyreneese by sheer dumb luck of farm dogs breeding to whoever they like. Breed that kind of dog to another mastiff, which was the Bull Mastiff used by Sarge, and these strong genes are now being doubled and tripled up on. The Catahoula and APBT genes seem to have been washed out and a white giant dog resembling a bulldog was made. Nothing ancient or unexplainable happened there. That brings me to how they are wrong about the bulldogs being LGD. True LGD have little to no contact with the human handlers, live exclusively with the flock, bonding to the animals they are entrusted to guard. With that comes a need for minimal to an absence of prey drive. Bulldogs have prey drive coming out of every orrifice. How can a dog who is bred to catch and chase game all of a sudden lose those instincts and be safe to be left unsupervised with sheep or stock of all ages, sizes and health extremes and NOT try and catch and kill it? Also, LGD will not leave the flock to fight, meaning they wont go past a certain distance that they have decided is a safe zone. A bulldog wil NOT stop or turn away from a fight, especially on his own accord and not tethered. These people take pictures of bulldogs lookig out into a field or checking out some chickens behind a fence and say its an LGD. No, its strictly a farm dog doing farm dog things. That explains the LGD or Georgia Giant. As far as the other types, they honestly seem like other breeders culls based on the descriptions and variance of type. I mean, any bulldogger worth his or her salt wouldt keep a bulldog who didnt have the bulldogs conviction, meaning willingness to do what is asked of him till the bitter end. The descriptios of these WEB not biting and holding, typewriter mouthed, baying is NOT Bulldog or running Mastiff traits but Cur or Hound traits. You can get 10 pictures of WEB and none will look the same. Some are straight APBT crosses, AB crosses, random bred mutt from who knows where but they look the part and no parental history is actualy known or the truth isnt given, and bam you now have the oldest more pure stock out there. Slashing bulldog? ad:

Now, Bulldog is a very generic term, it literaly means dog who works with bulls. Breedsknown to work bulls, apbt, ab, eb, mastiffs, shepherds, rottweilers, boxers, cattle dogs, collies...... Dogs known to be in the south that came in white or brindle and white, APBT, AST, SBT, AB, Boxer, St Bernard, EB, Great Dane..... All serious dogs back in the day, all were readily available in the south and all were and still are interbred. Here is where the making a bulldog comes into play
St bernard X Bull Mastiff

Bull Mastiff X Boxer

EB x APBT

APBT x Malinois

EB x Dogo

staffordshire Bull Terrier X AB

EB x Boxer

The next series is ALL Boxers,note the colors and head and body shapes.

This is a Boxer from a dog show in 1957 Russia

How hard would it have been to call any one of the dogs I showed here bulldogs, and even WEB cuz they fit the profie of colors, size and variance. The size variance, tepmeramentand type variance PROVES it is not a breed or even a type that WEB is just a name used to describe a bullog looking dog in the south.

If Im wrong im wrong and I'll admit it, but its gonna take some serious convincing with real proof to show otherwise.

I appologize if I came off as a know it all or blowhard, not my intention. Im just really trying to get to the bottomw of this, and im quite tired of the "factual history" swaying unknowing public.

Mike

 

[MULE]

You ain't scared to type are you?

 

[bigmike82]

You ain't scared to type are you?

Nope. Not when its concerning bulldogs. You should here some of the conversations I've had this past week with my buddy Scott about just that, bulldogs. Like I said I'm sorry its so long winded, but I'm of the opinion of thuroughness is better than assumptions. If you ever want to talk to me on the phone send me a message with your number and ill call you up. I wish I had the means to just come on down there for a year or 2 and just go around seeing all kinds of bulldogs work and breeding yards and meet you guys in the flesh. Till I can, phones and emails is the best I can do.

 

[rage]

bulldog

what kinda dog u call this?

 

[Cur'n Plott Man]

Looks like White English to me !! And as far as the true Mastiff dog, it dates back way beyond any spanish blood. The original Mastiff was used by roman gladiator's in their battles against lions and tigers. The dog was known to have weighed up to nearly 400 lbs !! This is where ALL bulldog blood originated. The last and closes DNA of this dog thats still living is the Cane Corso. And there are plenty of WHITE ENGLISH BULLDOGS in the south. Everything has been crossed one time or another to make a certain breed thats why we have Mastiff's all the way down to Boston terrier's.

 

[WolfPack]

This is where AKC comes in.....it helps buff out the kinks and "stabilize" the breed if ya get my drift. It isn't 100% foul proof but it does help keep it real.

 

[bigmike82]

Rage,
Id call them bulldogs. I assume you're going to say they are WEB from your families strain. If so, thanks for sharing some pictures. If they are your families dogs, can you pleaase share some info about them? Any and all would be great.

Curr n Plott man,
400lbs? Golly that's a lot bigger than even the early descriptions of Tibetan Mastiffs being big as pony's with 14 inch long muzzles. Where did you hear or read that? Id love to see it just to have another referrence point.

 

[Cur'n Plott Man]

Curr n Plott man,
400lbs? Golly that's a lot bigger than even the early descriptions of Tibetan Mastiffs being big as pony's with 14 inch long muzzles. Where did you hear or read that? Id love to see it just to have another referrence point.[/QUOTE]

I have a ALL BREEDS book that my wife picked up at a Pet World that has this description in it.

 

[barnetmill]

I know I am resurrecting and an old thread, but I am able to answer some of the OP's questions about white english dogs since I have two of them. Note they were generally not called bulldogs and likely the name White English predates the way the term is now used. Bulldog say about a century and half ago was more commonly used for dogs that fought bulls and also I suppose that would work with cattle. Many cur dogs and many bulldogs and some White English will throw an unruly bovine, usually by grabbing an ear, but will not bait them. The baiting bulldogs, attacked tending to try and pin the bull by his nose, the same way a wolf would do it.
I am in northwest Florida between Pensacola and Milton, FL and in the late 80's and early 90's the elder locals would talk about the White English, most notably its temperament. They were meant to guard livestock, kids, chickens and what have you in your yard or farm. The key thing is that it takes more to trip their attack switch compared to many other guarding breeds and they also turnoff very quickly.
Origins: The name white english goes back to at least 1870's, but by the mid-19th century there were no such dogs in England that still resembled them. Some people think they were named after the extinct shepherds mastiffs that was likely still about in the late 18 th century England. The shepherds mastiffs tended to white as is the great Pyrenees which is a long-haired shepherds mastiff. Dogs were likely ancestral to the WE type were transported to the Americas meaning from Terra de fuego to the US atlantic coast by first the spanish, then French, and the English. There were a lot of different dogs of Mastiff/alaunt/alano/wolf hound types brought here, especially to the "La Florida" area that includes Georgia, Alabama, Florida, and Louisiana. These dogs were bred and selected to make working dogs.
Different localities had their own types of dogs. There were kill dogs like the fila and cuban blood hounds to catch slaves, brindle and red bulldogs (have lower threshold to attack), and the white english type.
One of my dogs does definitely have some old shepherds mastiff in her. Her father was in the 130 lb range and had rear dew claws that are still seen in some alpine mastiffs. Right now my Memphis is a long thin dog that is gaining wt with big shoulders and big head. She is now 75lbs and I expect here to make 85 and perhaps more. One of her litter mates (Missy in California, owner flew in to Memphis, rented a car to get to northern MS) is 60 lbs and Media still retained by Ray Lane the breeder is in the 80 lbs range or bigger now. The point is most lines of these dogs are not really pure and can throw all sizes and a good variation of proportions. Some females can be less than 50 lbs. The muzzles should between 3 and 4 inches and show no sign of "old english bulldog/pug" influence. Coat can be totally white or have some red, red brown, or black patches depending on the locality. Some color is preferred since the all white dogs often throw blue eyes and deafness. Also they have more problems reacting to flea bites and such.
Many of them are not good catch dogs and you will risk your life if you use them to hold a hog while you tie the backlegs. They often let go once the hog stops resisting.
To be a white english it must never growl at its master over anything including food. If it does or snaps at a child it should die. It should have a lot of common sense.

There are very few breeders breeding white english dogs and there are great personality differences amongst those that do.
Many of what WE still exists has been interbred with the newer American Bulldog stock that often has a very different behavior, notably a lot more drive and may display dominance to human members of the family and a lot of dog aggression. The point is as a country dog people have bred these dogs as they see fit and so finding dogs with the original behavior and that are also healthy is a task. White English are not common now in my area and I am not even sure if they exist here anymore.
I went on the net a few years ago once I relocated back to florida and started to look for WE or White English and came across Heather Wilkins and Ray Lanes' postings and they described what I have been told by people about WE 15-20 years earlier.
Eventually Josh W.of Dixie, Georgia sent me a female on hay truck that his father was driving to pensacola that was really not completely suitable behavior wise for his breeding program, but still a very good dog. She is too friendly and to much for a WE. She likes to climb on my lap and barks to demand attention. She came from a cross with a WE dog from Alabama and one of Josh's Georgia WE. The mother of Ginger, Julie was recently bred and sent off to hog hunter near by. Josh says that Julie will catch and has a lot of drive. Julie is also too aggressive for his breeding program (She bit someone at three months of age) while her daughter Ginger was too friendly. Ginger will act aggressively to towards human intruders, especially if Memphis my other dog initiates it. Memphis being a mixture of Georgia Giant and the Carr type dogs is true Old WE in behavior. Her only faults is that she is extremely territorial and possessive of bones and such. She does not like to share, but then what dogs do? She shows no dog aggression, distinguishes between my neighbors and strangers, and is laid back, but ready to react to anything that she does not understand. Alerts to snakes, but does not attack (Neither does Ginger), important if you want your dog to survive in the south. Neither of these dogs can open their mouths to 180 degrees like their grandmother Dixie could do. I saw Dixie at the age of 13 do it and it is hard to believe. Dixie died at almost 14 years of age and IIRC threw her last litter of pups at about 12 years of age. At 13 yrs when I saw her her, breeding did not take.

I am willing to answer any question to the best of my ability. If Memphis continues to do well likely I will breed her when she reaches about 2 yrs of age. I need to talk to Josh, Heather, and Ray about that when the time comes since they are the ones with suitable males for my Memphis.

 

[Crispy]

Funny that I got a notice for this thread today as I just recently got an American Bulldog. His name is Bronco and he is a hybrid. His father is of Johnson lineage and the mother is Scott. Here is a pic of him at four weeks. Right now he is five weeks old and I still have to wait three weeks before I can bring him home. I can't wait!

 

[barnetmill]

Nice picture of an American Bulldog pup with an interesting eyepatch. I am trying to load a picture to this forum of my two pups last winter in the snow in NWFL of all places. Picture is Jan 29 2014. Ginger is the one with the color and a much younger Memphis is almost all white except for a little color on her noggin which is identical to her grandmother dixie.
My first attempt to post a photo: 129-14DSCF0140 - Copy.jpg (204.4 KB)

 

[Crispy]

Thank you. He's the only pup that had the large patch over the eye. The father has the same patch.

Nice picture and great looking dogs. I seem to remember there being some snow in Fl. last year. Didn't reach me in Chiefland though.

Thanks for posting the picture.

 

[Crispy]

Barnetmill,

I noticed you are in fl. so thought I would mention that the lady that I got the pup from has six more if you know someone looking for one. The parents are good looking dogs and registered. It's also their first litter.

 

[barnetmill]

Thank you. He's the only pup that had the large patch over the eye. The father has the same patch.

Nice picture and great looking dogs. I seem to remember there being some snow in Fl. last year. Didn't reach me in Chiefland though.

Thanks for posting the picture.

I will keep the availability of pups in mind. The presence of some color is also a good thing to have in American Bulldogs since some of them are prone to the same genetic problems with blue eyes and deafness as the WE. The georgia WE were used as foundation stock by JD Johnson and also likely by Scott too. Johnson added a lot of other dogs to his mix and from what I understand now there are even different lines of american bulldogs with some being closer to the WE and those that are closer are likely to be the ones that can end up with blue eyes and deafness. Heather, Ray, and Josh are trying to breed those WE dogs that have some red or red brown in them since besides avoiding deafness this also results in better skin health.
In the foto the dogs are cousins, but have very different builds. Ginger has the pit rear end and Memphis has a rear more typical of a mastiff or alano.

 

[Crispy]

I will keep the availability of pups in mind. The presence of some color is also a good thing to have in American Bulldogs since some of them are prone to the same genetic problems with blue eyes and deafness as the WE. The georgia WE were used as foundation stock by JD Johnson and also likely by Scott too. Johnson added a lot of other dogs to his mix and from what I understand now there are even different lines of american bulldogs with some being closer to the WE and those that are closer are likely to be the ones that can end up with blue eyes and deafness. Heather, Ray, and Josh are trying to breed those WE dogs that have some red or red brown in them since besides avoiding deafness this also results in better skin health.
In the foto the dogs are cousins, but have very different builds. Ginger has the pit rear end and Memphis has a rear more typical of a mastiff or alano.

Interesting. Thanks for the information.

All but one of the pups are white with a little black in them but very little. There is one solid white female.

One fault of the father is that he has one grey eye. She said grey but maybe it is actually blue? I did verify that my pup can hear as I had read about the chance for deafness.

If I remember correctly, the lady said that one of the parents is from the Orlando area and the other is from Georgia.

 

[barnetmill]

Some duties of old WE are to guard everything that the master owns. That includes chickens and even the outside cats.
The white Memphis has generally been best for that. She likes to run over to my little cat and sniff it. The cat runs away with the dog's nose under her tail in terror. But Memphis will not hurt it and I call her back when she does that. Ginger just plain does not like the cat, but has been taught not to attack it.
I obtained a test rooster since i plan to eventually raise chickens. Memphis was cool with the rooster initially. Ginger had to be taught not to pin it down. I was very hard on her, but she got the idea that she was not to chase the chicken and pin it. All was going well until Memphis caught the rooster in the dog house and it took two weeks to stop her from punishing and persecuting that rooster. Memphis being very territorial would tolerate the other dog Ginger in the dog house, but not the rooster. She was punishing it with small non-lethal bites. The Rooster was terrified. I punished (corrected is the better term) Memphis and now she is leaving the Rooster alone. I can when ready get some hens and let the dogs do their jobs. It is obvious that the dogs and Chickens cannot share the same small yard and very soon I will fence my acreage allowing the chickens and dogs to have different territories. The job of the dogs is to run off coyotes , foxes, and what have you that may invade my place. If hogs show up the job of these dogs is to kill or drive them off and not to hold them. Holding is not really in their job description. And they are not bulldogs. True old WE are really more like small mastiffs and primarily protective in function.