Can you really cull bucks?

[Forest Grump]

Couple more good articles by reputable researchers & authorities on why culling doesn't work:
James Kroll & Lindsay Thomas (QDMA)

http://www.qdma.com/what-we-do/articles/deer-biologymanagement/spikes-antler-equation/

http://qdmworks.wordpress.com/2010/10/12/why-we-cant-manage-deer-genetics/

 

[100hunter]

Couple more good articles by reputable researchers & authorities on why culling doesn't work:

This was an excerpt from one of your articles.
However, we don¹t want to lead you to believe that we think culling is not a worthwhile management practice. We still contend you can change the average antler quality of a well-managed deer herd by culling bucks with inferior antler quality. However, results of this study so far support our long-standing contention that culling should be done only on the older age classes of bucks – never on the yearlings. Young bucks, especially yearlings, are just too sensitive to weather and growing conditions to give you a good idea of the kind of antlers they are capable of growing in future years.

It can be done, just most managers or hunters are not good at it because we mainly focus on young deer with small or non symetrical racks. This debate has and will probably go on for years.

 

[Grey Man]

Yep. Folks will still be arguing about this in a 100 years. Along with scent control. ;-) But I am with 100hunter on this- those articles point out that culling should only be done on mature, older bucks. Which makes good sense.

Jeff, do they really do that in Texas? I've seen "Bucks of Tecomate" at some ranch in TX where the deer line the roads and it looks like a cattle call, but I didn't realize it was as bad as you describe. Wow. That's not the hunting I enjoy.

 

[pasinthrough]

They bring in breeder monster bucks to service the does.

Some of the bigger ranches don't even do this, they use semen straws and do artificial insemination or implant a fertilized egg from two known deer to get the exact results they want. This turns the does into nothing but a fawn cooking machine...

In a wild herd you never know who the doe was and since half of the bucks genetics comes from her you have less than a 50% chance to make an impact. JMHO...

 

[Grey Man]

I realize this is turning into a thread hijack, my apologies to the OP, but still...how do they round up does like that? Are they so docile they just let them drive 'em? Sorry, this is all just rather astonishing to me, never having heard it before.

 

[labs4life]

I realize this is turning into a thread hijack, my apologies to the OP, but still...how do they round up does like that? Are they so docile they just let them drive 'em? Sorry, this is all just rather astonishing to me, never having heard it before.

My guess is they would tranqualize them with a dart, then "do their business"

Mark them in some temp fashion and the cooking is off!!

 

[rhodes31072]

Fine by me, hijack away! My question was answered. Its a shame that the trophy has just turned into the amount of antlers and not the experience.

 

[1gr8bldr]

Not likely that you would ever see a difference but in theory, yes

 

[ryanwhit]

OK, so here's the thoughts of someone who manages deer property for a living.

Overall, no, culling is not successful in changing the genetic make-up of a deer herd, including both free-range and fenced herds. For this discussion, the operations of deer farming should be discounted, because that's really a whole different deal. Buying does and then AIing them with a semen straw from a known big deer is deer farming, not culling. Culling is the idea that removing specific individuals from the population will have a long term effect on the genetics of that population. In my experience, it simply doesn't work in free range or fenced populations. That said, I use the term "cull" to describe deer that I would rather not have in the population. Maybe he's a 6.5 year old 9 pt with no tine over 3 inches, or maybe he's a 215 lb 3.5 year old that scores 90. Either way, I don't want him there, I don't want to pay to feed him, I don't want him dominating feeders or food plots and discouraging other deer from using those areas. I would rather his spot in the social structure of the herd be occupied by a different deer, and all things being equal I would just rather him not participate in the rut. So I call him a cull, but I have absolutely no belief the herd will benefit genetically from removing him from the population.

 

[Grey Man]

I would rather his spot in the social structure of the herd be occupied by a different deer, and all things being equal I would just rather him not participate in the rut. So I call him a cull, but I have absolutely no belief the herd will benefit genetically from removing him from the population.

Interesting. Glad you posted, I am learning a ton in this thread!

Why would you not want him participating in the rut if not because you want someone else passing on their genes instead of him? Isnt that the same thing as trying to change the genetics of the herd?

 

[dtala]

OK, so here's the thoughts of someone who manages deer property for a living.

Overall, no, culling is not successful in changing the genetic make-up of a deer herd, including both free-range and fenced herds. For this discussion, the operations of deer farming should be discounted, because that's really a whole different deal. Buying does and then AIing them with a semen straw from a known big deer is deer farming, not culling. Culling is the idea that removing specific individuals from the population will have a long term effect on the genetics of that population. In my experience, it simply doesn't work in free range or fenced populations. That said, I use the term "cull" to describe deer that I would rather not have in the population. Maybe he's a 6.5 year old 9 pt with no tine over 3 inches, or maybe he's a 215 lb 3.5 year old that scores 90. Either way, I don't want him there, I don't want to pay to feed him, I don't want him dominating feeders or food plots and discouraging other deer from using those areas. I would rather his spot in the social structure of the herd be occupied by a different deer, and all things being equal I would just rather him not participate in the rut. So I call him a cull, but I have absolutely no belief the herd will benefit genetically from removing him from the population.

thank you Ryan.....

If ya'll don't take anything away from this discussion but what Ryan has stated they you are doing good. Excellent observation and absolutely spot on.

I managed a high fence private place for five years. High percentage of northern deer genetics. Very nice bucks. The owner decided to "cull" all 3+ year old bucks with only eight points, leaving all the ten+pointers to breed. Seven years down the road he still has a fair number of eight point 3-4-5 year olds. I do not believe that one can long term alter the genetics of ANY deer herd, fenced or not.

As Ryan said, you can remove, "cull", unwanted individual bucks. But you shouldn't kid yourself into thinking you are making an impact on herd genetics that you will be able to see.

If you decide that you need to remove 20 bucks from the herd for population control and you kill six good bucks that meet your trophy standards...what else do you kill??? I'd pick bucks from the older age classes that probably will not make the kind of buck I want to grow on that property....kinda what some places call "management" bucks.

99% of people do not understand the huge commitment in time, and money to effectively manage a "hands off" fenced property, at least to do it right. It is a LOT of work.

troy

 

[Jeff Phillips]

Jeff, do they really do that in Texas? I've seen "Bucks of Tecomate" at some ranch in TX where the deer line the roads and it looks like a cattle call, but I didn't realize it was as bad as you describe. Wow. That's not the hunting I enjoy.

http://www.piercewhitetail.com/

http://www.fidlerswhitetails.com/Whitetaildeersemen.html

http://www.rdmwildbunch.com/

Just a few examples. Sorry if I derailed the thread.

 

[ryanwhit]

Interesting. Glad you posted, I am learning a ton in this thread!

Why would you not want him participating in the rut if not because you want someone else passing on their genes instead of him? Isnt that the same thing as trying to change the genetics of the herd?

There's a couple of reasons I don't want him to participate. First, he's a risk to other bucks. A lot of people don't realize that when bucks fight - not spar, but fight - their objective is to kill the other one. Find a dead 7.5 year old with a tine puncture wound through one lung and the liver (like I did last year) and you can better understand it. Additionally, in high density areas, food sources (particularly feeders) are often dominated by bucks. They're rough on the does and fawns as well as other bucks. As a result, these other deer oftentimes are not able to utilize those food resources as much as they should. As far as actual rutting behavior goes, if he is a dominant buck, especially if he's a dominant buck with a bad attitude, he will put unnecessary physical stress on both bucks and does, resulting in poorer physical conditioning which is suboptimal for a number of reasons. But to address your question head on, I just sleep better knowing that deer with unwanted antler characteristics are not participating in the rut. While they may have other traits that are desirable, there is no way to know, much less measure that. So while I know that by removing him I am not bettering the antler quality of a property, I'm not feeding him anymore, he's not running and harassing does, not starting fights, etc., and I just feel better about it.

It is a LOT of work.

troy

Boy, ain't that the truth. The folks writing the checks don't even know how much work it is.

 

[Son]

Without absolute control of deer being taken in the area. No
Then the word cull is used losely. A bucks rack can be abnormal, due to past injuries, not caused by genetics. So, with that said, leave the ugly ones for your buddies.

 

[Grey Man]

http://www.piercewhitetail.com/

http://www.fidlerswhitetails.com/Whitetaildeersemen.html

http://www.rdmwildbunch.com/

Just a few examples. Sorry if I derailed the thread.

Wow! I had seen some pics of deer like that but I did not know they were being bred, I figured they were in a zoo or something. I'm sorry if I offend someone, but that's just not something I want to participate in. Someday I will land a trophy, and when I do he will be natural. Id rather not land one at all then get somebodys lab experiment.

 

[100hunter]

I too have been involved in deer management in Estill SC perhaps one of the toughest places in the world to alter a herd. Our goal was a little different then most properties. We didn't cull 8pt bucks to keep only 10 pts or better. We promoted the stronger deer to avoid risk of disease. First we had to get the ratio from 8/1 down to a 3/1 or 4/1 ratio. We shot deer yr round but never mature healthy 8,10,12 pt bucks. A lot of undersized does and bucks were removed along with mature non typical deer. Every deer carries a recessive gene such as in the case of piebald deer which were present on our property. In less than 5 yrs no more sightings. Thats not to say that we totally eliminated the possibility of piebald breeding but it was under control. Free range deer travel miles especially when their being picked on. In our case the term cull was for the stronger animal not necessarily the biggest rack. The stronger bucks rule, food supply, breeding, territory etc. I too have seen inferior rack deer kill the mature bucks but thats more the exception then the rule. I've seen tons of inferior deer injured and killed by the more dominate mature deer. We learned that culling is a natural process with just a little help from hunters and managers. There was only two strains of deer introduced to the state of GA, however one club complains that they have no big deer on their property and the club two miles away are consistently killing large deer. Did the genetics of the larger deer only migrate to Fulton county? Not. Food supply and management is the key not only genetics. Everyone definition of a cull deer is not the same which makes it impossible to agree upon. Sorry for my dumb analysis.

 

[labs4life]

I will address the Fulton county comment, and that involves age structure only. Same goes with most of the bow only counties. Are there inferior deer there, sure. You just have a higher age structure the bucks are allowed to reach and we as bowhunters like to shoot stuff, ie does!!
That in effect, reduces the ratio and allows the bucks to reach genetic potential. Ratio coupled with the general public feeding deer year around doesn't hurt things either

I too have been involved in deer management in Estill SC perhaps one of the toughest places in the world to alter a herd. Our goal was a little different then most properties. We didn't cull 8pt bucks to keep only 10 pts or better. We promoted the stronger deer to avoid risk of disease. First we had to get the ratio from 8/1 down to a 3/1 or 4/1 ratio. We shot deer yr round but never mature healthy 8,10,12 pt bucks. A lot of undersized does and bucks were removed along with mature non typical deer. Every deer carries a recessive gene such as in the case of piebald deer which were present on our property. In less than 5 yrs no more sightings. Thats not to say that we totally eliminated the possibility of piebald breeding but it was under control. Free range deer travel miles especially when their being picked on. In our case the term cull was for the stronger animal not necessarily the biggest rack. The stronger bucks rule, food supply, breeding, territory etc. I too have seen inferior rack deer kill the mature bucks but thats more the exception then the rule. I've seen tons of inferior deer injured and killed by the more dominate mature deer. We learned that culling is a natural process with just a little help from hunters and managers. There was only two strains of deer introduced to the state of GA, however one club complains that they have no big deer on their property and the club two miles away are consistently killing large deer. Did the genetics of the larger deer only migrate to Fulton county? Not. Food supply and management is the key not only genetics. Everyone definition of a cull deer is not the same which makes it impossible to agree upon. Sorry for my dumb analysis.

 

[ryanwhit]

There was only two strains of deer introduced to the state of GA, however one club complains that they have no big deer on their property and the club two miles away are consistently killing large deer.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[Forest Grump]

There was only two strains of deer introduced to the state of GA, however one club complains that they have no big deer on their property and the club two miles away are consistently killing large deer.

???

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=289286

Deer were stocked from quite a few states, and that is just the ones by the Game & Fish Commission (now DNR). Quite a few private landowners with means bought their own deer because they got tired of waiting for the state to get around to their county. Examples I know of are in Worth & Wilcox.

And yes, you can have dramatically different genetic populations just 2-5 miles apart. But you are correct that age and particularly nutrition have a greater impact on antler size.

 

[ryanwhit]

???

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=289286

Deer were stocked from quite a few states, and that is just the ones by the Game & Fish Commission (now DNR). Quite a few private landowners with means bought their own deer because they got tired of waiting for the state to get around to their county. Examples I know of are in Worth & Wilcox.

And yes, you can have dramatically different genetic populations just 2-5 miles apart. But you are correct that age and particularly nutrition have a greater impact on antler size.

You beat me to it. I've got the whole document from whence the tables in the other thread came in a PDF. It's called "Deer Stocking Program in Georgia 1928-1974." It was published in 1975. I was just waitin' to bust it out