Christians and Their Beliefs...

[billyjames]

I know this forum is but a very small, small sampling of the Christian faith. However, I am pretty amazed that there is very, very little agreement on even the basic principles of the Christian belief system. It almost seems that each denomination, individual congregations, and, perhaps, even individuals within congregations have very different stances of these basic beliefs. I look at the poll about knowing for sure one is saved and see over 87% professing without a doubt. Yet, I look at a thread about "What is Saved" and can find very little certainty or agreement on exactly what being saved actually even means. (And this is in a forum where we have time to research, discuss with friends and other believers, pray about, and take time to give a reply -- What of those "real-time" encounters with the lost people of this world who ask honest and earnest questions only to get often-time trite, churchy, Christianize answers, and, if questioned further are simply blown off by some as trouble-makers...) If we are this confused within ourselves, how, then, are we ever going to actually "Make Disciples" of a lost world. Could it be that we have turned our "believing" so inward that it has little practical application in the world around us?

 

[gordon 2]

"I look at the poll about knowing for sure one is saved and see over 87% professing without a doubt. Yet, I look at a thread about "What is Saved" and can find very little certainty or agreement on exactly what being saved actually even means. [/QUOTE] by Billyjames

It is my experience that you really don't have a difficulty with understanding what "saved" means because of what your percieve to be incoherent answers to the queiry form participants. Your difficulty is finding out what "lost" means.

If you are sincere in finding out what "saved" means start with studying people first and then their communications will perhaps become clearer t you.

May I ask you a question or two? Do you know of individuals, groups that are said to be "lost" by people you respect? I bet you do. So did you ever ask them why they state some people are lost?

Do this and then re-ask the question about being saved, perhaps. I am a slow learner and it took me years to understand the concept of "lost" human beings. You know people who are lost emotionally, socially, spiritually, economically, intellectually....etc.

Also, a study of tolerance, as in social tolerance, is a great start in undertanding replies to questions from people , all individual, of differing national, cultural, religious and spiritual realities. And of different social backgrounds in single societies. Generational differences etc....

You might benefit by being tolerant of the reply individuals give you. Put together they say a lot....but you got to have ears to listen and eyes to see.... I think Jesus had something to say about this...somewhere in scripture. Getting those eyes and ears will open up what is "saved" and what is "lost" to you.

gordon

 

[SBG]

You make some very good points Gordon.

 

[billyjames]

May I ask you a question or two? Do you know of individuals, groups that are said to be "lost" by people you respect? I bet you do. So did you ever ask them why they state some people are lost?

Answer to your first question: Yes.
Answer to your second question: Yes. Most of the people I know who are of the Christian faith who perceive people to be lost pretty much call anyone who doesn't believe EXACTLY as they do about doctrinal things as lost. With so many, many differences and doctrinal hair-splitting, I can see how easily it can be for people to become confused, and, even if they are not "lost to God", can easily be made to feel lost by the Christian ambivalence and seeming confusion among Christians about the very basic doctrinal issues of the faith...

 

[SBG]

I can see how easily it can be for people to become confused, and, even if they are not "lost to God", can easily be made to feel lost by the Christian ambivalence and seeming confusion among Christians about the very basic doctrinal issues of the faith...

I agree with you billy that there is much confusion in the area of secondary doctrine; however, I don't see a lot of confusion in the "very basic doctrinal issues" as you have suggested. Of course there are always exceptions.

 

[billyjames]

What issues would you consider as "basic"?

 

[SBG]

What issues would you consider as "basic"?

I was going to ask you the same thing.

Since it is your thread....what do you think?

 

[billyjames]

My Beginnings of the List:

1) Nature of God
2) Situation of Humanity
3) Person Of Jesus
4) How these three above things are woven together (i.e., sin, forgiveness, repentance, etc...)

That would be a beginning...

 

[SBG]

My Beginnings of the List:

1) Nature of God
2) Situation of Humanity
3) Person Of Jesus
4) How these three above things are woven together (i.e., sin, forgiveness, repentance, etc...)

That would be a beginning...

I don't want to respond in such a way that I am "shooting" down the things that you believe are "basic." So, I will preface this with IMHO.

1) Nature of God
2) Situation of Humanity

These two items are really secondary issues. Why? Because they are issues that are prone to subjective thought, and ultimately, what one believes on these topics has no bearing on salvation. God is so infinite in being, it is neither necessary nor is it possible for all to be in complete agreement as to His nature.

The situation of humanity is such a vast topic...and really one has to separate it into two periods. The period of time prior to salvation, and the time period that follows salvation.

The person of Jesus is a basic doctrinal issue. It is established in God's word, and there can be no deviation in it from the "faith which was once delivered." The doctrine of Christ is universal in its belief in Christianity.

 

[billyjames]

I will begin a new thread getting some consensus from the represented Christians on the forum... Perhaps we can narrow it down from Ipersonal opinions to a more established, perhaps even Biblical, list of what the "Basics" of the Christian faith, teachings and actions looks like. I think having the Christian community on the same page is a first step toward following through with Jesus' great commission for the Church to be about the business of "Making Disciples of all people..."

 

[SBG]

I will begin a new thread getting some consensus from the represented Christians on the forum... Perhaps we can narrow it down from Ipersonal opinions to a more established, perhaps even Biblical, list of what the "Basics" of the Christian faith, teachings and actions looks like. I think having the Christian community on the same page is a first step toward following through with Jesus' great commission for the Church to be about the business of "Making Disciples of all people..."

Like I said earlier billy, orthodox Christianity is in agreement on the basics, its the secondary issues where the paths diverge.

 

[gordon 2]

Billy, I don't think you are going to get far on finding exactly what being saved is using your method here. You could visit with christain scolars and perhaps your question would be ansered more precisely.

One thing that I have learned very early on when I sat with my brothers and sisters in the faith is that no one was on the same page! I asked my pastor or priest about this and he said but that is the way it is. And he was right. We as individuals and indeed communities are never on the exact same page. Even the rocks shift with time.

However, as an individual christian let me add to the nebula on "what is saved" with a little comet.

My take goes as this: Once their was a chosen people who were saved from bondage and slavery to a culture or society in which they were of low rank and forever deemed to be. The were different from the dominant culture. The dominant culture's moral and social set up was a bit off taste to this "low" culture. It is said in this ancient story that God via a hebrew prophet, for the slaves and low class were indeed hebrews, was freed from the dominant society, they are said to have been the great and mighty Egypte of ancient times. And so the hebrews were saved, it is said.

Now this story can be told simply or as an epic. A simple telling of the story would be that jonas was "lost" in the belly of the fish for three days and then was spit out and it is then that Jonas did God's will. Now I will not presure this but it is the same story. A story of loss and salvation.

Now the same is true of Jesus the guy from Galilee 2000 yrs ago or so. He, with his diciples freed a whole lot of blue eyed pagans, black eyed semites et all, my ancestors, from the laviatons of Church, State, Culture, and just plain stupidity and indeed evil.

The thread in all these cases of salvation is that they got folks in tune to the will of God or the devine will which is the creator of "Man". Or the maker of Man verses mere human animals .

So therefore the "saved" in my christian tradition are saved by knowing and being in relationship with the will of the God of Moses, Abraham and Paul, John, Dixie, Popes, Rabi Star, Iman Mohamad, coffee drinkers everywhere etc.

As a chistian I can smell a "saved" a mile away! He not only preaches love, he does it. He not only loves his or her own he loves those who are difficult to love. He/she has no axe to grind and he/she though falling short of the Will of God are at home where Kingdoms and fortresses are inside individuals and not on sand, or marsh or indeed rock.

Now I am a Roman Catholic and my religion tell me that not only christians are saved but also all men and women that "do" the will of God. Some Roman Chatholics are also Zen Buddist for example and therefore I must believe when I hear the Daili Lama speak he is indeed as christians "should be" in the will of our Lord, because the Lama is for us and not again us. When Gandi a Hindu said that Chistianity was be greatest force the world had ever known, was he again us or with us. I say he was with us, Gandi was saved. Now in my neck of the woods the native indians "Micmacs" sheltered, helped and loved their European foreigners to the new world. For us or again us. Did they do the will of God, the creator of man, or according to the greed of human beings?? I say they were saved, not lost!

I surely need not go on.....saved is he or she which knows that death does not polute our desires...for in knowing God in us, rot and the fly has not dominion. The lost are well....me and my certainties which I must die to...in order to know and love all my brothers and sisters who indeed are me. And so the Will of God our guide.

Jesus was saved and could save by example and teaching and by doing, because he had the father in himself or did His will. He did not do his desires but as his Father's will. And thru Jesus we are all saved from "death" or "suffucation" if we chose to...

 

[PWalls]

The term "Christian" implies that we all believe that Christ was the Son of God, that He was sacrificed for our sins and that He is the only way to Heaven. That is the core issue that we all agree on. If you don't believe that, then you can't really call yourself a Christian.

Where we differ after that is the secondary issues: once saved always saved, immersion or sprinkle, predestined or voluntary, etc, etc, etc.

While I disagree doctrinally with some of my Christian breathren, I still look forward to seeing them in Heaven.

 

[gordon 2]

Pwalls,
Just an aside, Roman Catholics don't believe that the only way to heaven is thru Jesus. That is not one of their core beliefs....

 

[Randy]

The term "Christian" implies that we all believe that Christ was the Son of God, that He was sacrificed for our sins and that He is the only way to Heaven. That is the core issue that we all agree on. If you don't believe that, then you can't really call yourself a Christian.

That is what I think is the first, last, and only important thing. All the other stuff we discuss is trivial and does not determne if you are going to Heaven or pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie. Some argue that you can't believe that if you do not believe the rest of the Bible. But Jesus said it himself. IT IS THE ONLY WAY!

 

[FESTUSHAGGIN]

I will begin a new thread getting some consensus from the represented Christians on the forum... Perhaps we can narrow it down from Ipersonal opinions to a more established, perhaps even Biblical, list of what the "Basics" of the Christian faith, teachings and actions looks like. I think having the Christian community on the same page is a first step toward following through with Jesus' great commission for the Church to be about the business of "Making Disciples of all people..."

only biblical basics i need to base my christian belief can be found in the book of john. chapter 3 verse 16

for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish but have ever lasting life.

i base my faith and belief whole heartedly on these words. its really that simple. and as basic as you can possibly get. dont try and complicate things.

 

[Madsnooker]

I know this forum is but a very small, small sampling of the Christian faith. However, I am pretty amazed that there is very, very little agreement on even the basic principles of the Christian belief system. It almost seems that each denomination, individual congregations, and, perhaps, even individuals within congregations have very different stances of these basic beliefs. I look at the poll about knowing for sure one is saved and see over 87% professing without a doubt. Yet, I look at a thread about "What is Saved" and can find very little certainty or agreement on exactly what being saved actually even means.

Billy, I read the same thread and saw reply after reply agreeing to what it means to be saved. Confession of Jesus Christ as savoiur of your life and confession of sins. We are all in much agreement there. Not sure what you are looking for.

As far as not agreeing on most topics, I would disagree. Most all of us agree on the Bible being the written word of God, Salvation thru Jesus Christ, evolution(just kidding) , etc. It is topics like pre or post trib or once saved always saved where you will find debate. These are things that will not keep a Christian out of heaven no matter what side of the fence your looking over.

As I've said before, there will be a day when we are all sitting around the camp fire with Jesus and he will look over at me and say, "you bonehead, I can't believe you thought you could lose your salvation." Just kidding of course but you get my drift.