Coram Deo

[Artfuldodger]

I believe God loves all of us. That certainly does not mean he will save all of us.

Yet he didn't blind all of us like he did the Jews in Romans 11. It appears that God chose a remnant by grace and hardened the rest, His choice, to let salvation go out into the world.

I can't say that I agree with what God did in Romans 11. Paul even said who am I to question what God did in Romans 11. God had a covenant with Israel. Romans 11 says all sin will be removed from Zion.

29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?" 35“Who has first given to God, that God should repay him?”

 

[Madman]

Count me as one who has been “lumped together” with our brother Judah. It’s not hard to see that although our faith began with Jews, MEN removed anything that looked “Jewish” about our faith (ie Sabbath, Feasts, etc). God didn’t do it; men did it.

Don’t want to derail this thread but we (my family and me) keep sabbath and GOD’S - not the Jews’ - feast days. It has revolutionized my walk with our Messiah

That would be a good thread to start.

 

[Bob2010]

And then, in Ephesians 6, Paul tells us to obey a commandment. Lol

Eph 6:2. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

So, you believe that Jesus abolished the Law?

Paul never once insinuated that Jesus abolished the law. Infact Jesus was the only man to ever keep the law perfectly. Jesus showed us that our motives behind keeping the law are just as important as keeping the law. Maybe even more important! However Paul is clear that keeping the law won

That would be a good thread to start.

We have some masonic Jews at our church. I believe them to be saved and they love Jesus. They celebrate the feast and they get touchy about Easter and Christmas. They claim the bible doesn't tell us to celebrate those events like we do. Also they say the dates of Easter and Christmas were based on the dates of pagan holidays. Converts wanted to keep holiday dates? I'm sure there is some truth to this. I still will celebrate Easter and Christmas though.

 

[Bob2010]

The Church that Christ Jesus started is the fulfillment of what was began with Israel. There is a lot of history there.

I completely agree. But they flat out refused Jesus as the Messiah. Martin Luther lost his mind after a lifetime of devotion to offering salvation to God's chosen people. Rejection took its toll. Seems we would have 2 separate forums. This is a pretty big stumbling block to overcome. One group believes Jesus is Lord and the other rejected their own Messiah. Pretty big differences to overcome. I just wonder if it happened by happenstance or there is a motive or reason for it.

 

[Bob2010]

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


For this cause I have sent unto you Timothy, who is my beloved son and faithful in the Lord, who shall put you in remembrance of my ways which are in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church.

Circumcision set Jews apart to belong to the Jewish faith. Baptism is circumcision of the heart. Circumcision is Jewish baptism really. Except it doesn't save them.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I completely agree. But they flat out refused Jesus as the Messiah. Martin Luther lost his mind after a lifetime of devotion to offering salvation to God's chosen people. Rejection took its toll. Seems we would have 2 separate forums. This is a pretty big stumbling block to overcome. One group believes Jesus is Lord and the other rejected their own Messiah. Pretty big differences to overcome. I just wonder if it happened by happenstance or there is a motive or reason for it.

It appears though in Romans 11, their rejection was necessary for the Gentiles to be grafted in. A Remnant was chosen and the rest were hardened to this day. They are doing the will of God. It was necessary for Jesus to be crucified. It was God's plan. God gave us His son. The Cross removed the wall between the Jews and Gentiles.
The connection to Israel is now stronger due to the grafting. Reading Romans 11 theirs is due to the Patriarchs and that covenant. God never renigs on his promises. We can't even get too cocky on this grafting or we can be removed. It's not like we can say "ha, ha you Jews, we are in and you are out!" The redeemer will come from Zion and remove all sin from Zion.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

We have some masonic Jews at our church. I believe them to be saved and they love Jesus. They celebrate the feast and they get touchy about Easter and Christmas. They claim the bible doesn't tell us to celebrate those events like we do. Also they say the dates of Easter and Christmas were based on the dates of pagan holidays. Converts wanted to keep holiday dates? I'm sure there is some truth to this. I still will celebrate Easter and Christmas though.

I, too, no longer celebrate Easter or Christmas as a simple search of the origins of these holidays will show anyone who cares their pagan origin. I celebrate God’s feasts - they’re not Jewish feast - and they are forever. Paul also instructs us (Gentiles) to keep them.

Keep in mind that Jews reject Jesus MAINLY for one reason; Deut 13. God told Israel (us) to reject any prophet that does not teach what Moses taught. Most churches have propogated that lie that Jesus abolished the Law, and that is what they’ve heard

 

[j_seph]

Without Christ and the bible there is no real moral compass. Belief in anything beyond that is idol worship. Any belief outside of Christ leaves us making our own rules and acting as if we are a God.

So wouldn't that make Atheist be a God? But wait then that would mean Atheist are not really what they say they are So wouldn't they be Agnostics

 

[Artfuldodger]

So wouldn't that make Atheist be a God? But wait then that would mean Atheist are not really what they say they are So wouldn't they be Agnostics

As would the Hindu and Muslims. Under Bob's definition which he used to make the Jews a God.
What his is saying is beyond believing in Christ and His Father one is worshiping idols. Therefore anyone not doing so can only have the morals that they made themselves making them a god in doing so. Yes by this definition Atheist are gods.

 

[Artfuldodger]

So wouldn't that make Atheist be a God? But wait then that would mean Atheist are not really what they say they are So wouldn't they be Agnostics

One thing I've noticed and related to Christians associating with Jews or Hindus, etc. is Freemasonry. To be one you only have to believe in "any" god to include the God of Abraham. Therefore by association it's an organization of idol worshipers. This is just an example of what you are saying we are doing by lumping Christianity with Judiasm.

Also thinking this same way, how can we have such a vague forum of Christians as some believe in Oneness vs the Trinity, etc. If some believe they can save themselves, etc. Lordship Salvation vs Easy Believism. Some people think many of us may be worshiping a "different" Jesus that the real one just by making him the Father incarnate or and eternal son. Or not an eternal son.

 

[Bob2010]

It appears though in Romans 11, their rejection was necessary for the Gentiles to be grafted in. A Remnant was chosen and the rest were hardened to this day. They are doing the will of God. It was necessary for Jesus to be crucified. It was God's plan. God gave us His son. The Cross removed the wall between the Jews and Gentiles.
The connection to Israel is now stronger due to the grafting. Reading Romans 11 theirs is due to the Patriarchs and that covenant. God never renigs on his promises. We can't even get too cocky on this grafting or we can be removed. It's not like we can say "ha, ha you Jews, we are in and you are out!" The redeemer will come from Zion and remove all sin from Zion.

One thing is for sure! We better not boast. It very well could of been any of us that He chose to harden. I certainly don't deserve to be the elect. However I guess we can't say that either. Insinuates that I am arrogant and prideful. So instead I will just be thankful my hard is not hardened.

 

[Bob2010]

I, too, no longer celebrate Easter or Christmas as a simple search of the origins of these holidays will show anyone who cares their pagan origin. I celebrate God’s feasts - they’re not Jewish feast - and they are forever. Paul also instructs us (Gentiles) to keep them.

Keep in mind that Jews reject Jesus MAINLY for one reason; Deut 13. God told Israel (us) to reject any prophet that does not teach what Moses taught. Most churches have propogated that lie that Jesus abolished the Law, and that is what they’ve heard

I agree about some churches. But not all! I can only imagine what it would of been like to have Christmas removed. We have celebrated it for so many years. Then suddenly we can't do it anymore. My point is that they don't know the actual date of Christmas and Easter. They chose to celebrate it to replace the old traditions of pagan beliefs. In todays time it is not a sin to celebrate Jesus. It may not be in the Bible that we have to celebrate Jesus. But it's not a sin to celebrate him. The feast thing is interesting to me. I know the bible says we are supposed to do it. The problem is the Jewish people from what I understand believe they don't have to sacrifice animals anymore for thier sins. The feast makes them right with God. Why would I encourage something that justifies one not repenting and needing Jesus to be right with God? I don't need a feast when I have Jesus. However the law is still as important today as it was then. Jesus did not abolish the law. He teaches us our motives in keeping the law are just as important as keeping the law. We can't do either perfectly. That's why we need Jesus. The feast won't do it. That would be works based salvation.

 

[Bob2010]

So wouldn't that make Atheist be a God? But wait then that would mean Atheist are not really what they say they are So wouldn't they be Agnostics

**** if I know! I just know without the Bible and Jesus people can justify anything! They have no moral standard.

 

[Artfuldodger]

**** if I know! I just know without the Bible and Jesus people can justify anything! They have no moral standard.

They could still have a moral standard, it would just not be the Christian one. It could be a Hindu standard and maybe not even a Religious standard. Maybe a community standard passed on from one village to another village of civilized people. Or a generation of villagers who pass it on to the next generation.

Plus since salvation is based on grace and election, where ones morals come from isn't really that important. We are all like filthy rags. None of us are righteous.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

The feast makes them right with God. Why would I encourage something that justifies one not repenting and needing Jesus to be right with God? I don't need a feast when I have Jesus. However the law is still as important today as it was then. Jesus did not abolish the law. He teaches us our motives in keeping the law are just as important as keeping the law. We can't do either perfectly. That's why we need Jesus. The feast won't do it. That would be works based salvation.

The feasts are God's feasts, and were never for making one right with God. It took blood being spilled for that. Everyone will be keeping the feasts in the millenial reign, and we (Gentiles) are told to keep them by Paul. Also, if you want to understand the 1st coming of the Messiah, you see that perfectly fulfilled in the spring feasts. If you want to understand His 2nd coming, you need to study the as-yet unfulfilled Fall feasts. Christianity today, having zero understanding of the feasts of God, can't explain how Jesus was 3 days and 3 nights in the grave. I know, because I read various christian commentators when I was young to see what they said about it. They, too, had silly bogus answers that never accounted for 3 nights.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The feasts are God's feasts, and were never for making one right with God. It took blood being spilled for that. Everyone will be keeping the feasts in the millenial reign, and we (Gentiles) are told to keep them by Paul. Also, if you want to understand the 1st coming of the Messiah, you see that perfectly fulfilled in the spring feasts. If you want to understand His 2nd coming, you need to study the as-yet unfulfilled Fall feasts. Christianity today, having zero understanding of the feasts of God, can't explain how Jesus was 3 days and 3 nights in the grave. I know, because I read various christian commentators when I was young to see what they said about it. They, too, had silly bogus answers that never accounted for 3 nights.

I would love to hear the 3 nights answer if you get a minute. Either on this thread or a new one.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

I would love to hear the 3 nights answer if you get a minute. Either on this thread or a new one.

I’ll start a new thread.

 

[Bob2010]

The feasts are God's feasts, and were never for making one right with God. It took blood being spilled for that. Everyone will be keeping the feasts in the millenial reign, and we (Gentiles) are told to keep them by Paul. Also, if you want to understand the 1st coming of the Messiah, you see that perfectly fulfilled in the spring feasts. If you want to understand His 2nd coming, you need to study the as-yet unfulfilled Fall feasts. Christianity today, having zero understanding of the feasts of God, can't explain how Jesus was 3 days and 3 nights in the grave. I know, because I read various christian commentators when I was young to see what they said about it. They, too, had silly bogus answers that never accounted for 3 nights.

I know the Bible says that the feast are important. I aslo believe you to be far more educated than I am in the matter. I know dates and timelines are fuzzy. I also believe when Rome pushed Christianity so they could govern the people many dates and timelines were adjusted to accommodate pagan traditions that were lost. I don't believe that was the right thing to do at the time but it was most certainly God's will. I am told the Jewish people participate in the feast instead of sacrificing animals today. They admittedly have a sin problem and the only solution is the feast because by law they can't sacrifice animals. This is a works based feast that replaces the need for sacrifice and furthermore the need for Jesus. Why would a Christian partake in works based forgiveness alongside Jews who reject Christ and no longer sacrifice animals? Serious question.

 

[Bob2010]

They could still have a moral standard, it would just not be the Christian one. It could be a Hindu standard and maybe not even a Religious standard. Maybe a community standard passed on from one village to another village of civilized people. Or a generation of villagers who pass it on to the next generation.

Plus since salvation is based on grace and election, where ones morals come from isn't really that important. We are all like filthy rags. None of us are righteous.

This is just false. I believe the scripture to say both election and free will exist at the same time. Just like the Trinity can't be understood by us. We are not capable of wrapping our minds around both free will and election existing together. Both are certainly biblical! This is a different conversation though. Jesus did not abolish the law nor are we to do whatever we want to do because we are the elect or we are not the elect. We have no free pass and are not mindless robots. However I do believe many of those that struggle with the biblical truth of election are just scared that they are not the elect. For example they hope participating in a feast or keeping the law will save them. It won't.

 

[Artfuldodger]

This is just false. I believe the scripture to say both election and free will exist at the same time. Just like the Trinity can't be understood by us. We are not capable of wrapping our minds around both free will and election existing together. Both are certainly biblical! This is a different conversation though. Jesus did not abolish the law nor are we to do whatever we want to do because we are the elect or we are not the elect. We have no free pass and are not mindless robots. However I do believe many of those that struggle with the biblical truth of election are just scared that they are not the elect. For example they hope participating in a feast or keeping the law will save them. It won't.

I don't think I mentioned free will and election any different that you did.