Coram Deo

[Artfuldodger]

This is just false. I believe the scripture to say both election and free will exist at the same time. Just like the Trinity can't be understood by us. We are not capable of wrapping our minds around both free will and election existing together. Both are certainly biblical! This is a different conversation though. Jesus did not abolish the law nor are we to do whatever we want to do because we are the elect or we are not the elect. We have no free pass and are not mindless robots. However I do believe many of those that struggle with the biblical truth of election are just scared that they are not the elect. For example they hope participating in a feast or keeping the law will save them. It won't.

I would agree there is a lot in the Bible that is a mystery/secret. The whole Jewish Gentile deliverance concept is still a mystery to me. Why did God choose Israel only to harden their hearts so that the gospel could go out to the Gentiles? Why even choose a nation to begin with? Why all that genealogy if it was suppose to be cast aside as meaningless after the Cross? Why remove the barrier and graft in the Gentiles instead of never having a barrier to begin with. God is the one who chose Israel.

Plus like you said the Trinity/unity/oneness thing with diversity. Most definitely the free will and predestination thing. And the works and grace thing. Lots of mysteries.

 

[Bob2010]

I would agree there is a lot in the Bible that is a mystery/secret. The whole Jewish Gentile deliverance concept is still a mystery to me. Why did God choose Israel only to harden their hearts so that the gospel could go out to the Gentiles? Why even choose a nation to begin with? Why all that genealogy if it was suppose to be cast aside as meaningless after the Cross? Why remove the barrier and graft in the Gentiles instead of never having a barrier to begin with. God is the one who chose Israel.

Plus like you said the Trinity/unity/oneness thing with diversity. Most definitely the free will and predestination thing. And the works and grace thing. Lots of mysteries.

They all lead me to one thing. God could of abolished sin completely. Never allowed it to exist. What need would we have for Jesus if sin didn't exist?

 

[Bob2010]

I do believe morals are important, they like works though, are not a part of salvation by grace.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

This just explains it's salvation from grace and not works. Other parts from Paul explains the importance of morals, works, fruits, etc. with help from the Spirit.

Our works are a result of our faith. Just like our motives behind keeping the law are just as important as actually keeping the law. Our good works are a result of our faith in Christ. Good fruit.

 

[Bob2010]

I don't think I mentioned free will and election any different that you did.

This was in response to this part
Plus since salvation is based on grace and election, where ones morals come from isn't really that important.
This is almost like saying because of election there is no need to even try to keep the law. Morals are not that important but the rules set out in God's word are very important. My experience so far is that people that don't believe Christ is Lord can shape and mold a god that they understand. They can justify anything because they make thier own rules.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

Our works are a result of our faith. Just like our motives behind keeping the law are just as important as actually keeping the law. Our good works are a result of our faith in Christ. Good fruit.

I've heard it said that "our works are the FRUIT of our salvation, not the ROOT of our salvation". Salvation should cause one to bear fruit eventually...

Question.... Do you know that, in heaven, some will be greater than others? Some will also be lesser. Jesus tells us what will make the difference. Same thing when it comes to the New Jerusalem....some will be allowed in, others will have to remain outside

 

[Bob2010]

I've heard it said that "our works are the FRUIT of our salvation, not the ROOT of our salvation". Salvation should cause one to bear fruit eventually...

Question.... Do you know that, in heaven, some will be greater than others? Some will also be lesser. Jesus tells us what will make the difference. Same thing when it comes to the New Jerusalem....some will be allowed in, others will have to remain outside

I don't know much about the new Jerusalem. I need to study more on that. I do remember learning that there are like levels in Heaven. Mostly that our good works or fruit won't get us in to Heaven. We will be compensated in Heaven for our works. In other words the one who just believes in Jesus with very little fruit may get a small apartment in Heaven. The one with lots of fruit and good works is storing up treasures in Heaven. He may get an estate property with quail dogs and hot wives! He will rule over many nations. A card board box in Heaven is better than ****. I would just say that obviously my example of a quail plantation is fabricated by my imagination. Bible doesn't say there will be marriage, dogs, or hunting in Heaven. That's the problem with the word treasures. God's idea of treasure is not the same as mine. His ideas of treasure exceeds my imagination. But I do believe that one with more fruit will rule over others and have a higher position in Heaven. I fear those that do Gods work simply with the motive of getting more in Heaven will regret that decision one day. That goes along with our motives for keeping God's laws being just as important as keeping the law. Jesus did not abolish the law. He wants us to examine our motives.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

That goes along with our motives for keeping God's laws being just as important as keeping the law.

My motive for keeping God's Law is to show Him that I love Him. (I Jn 5:3) Obedience is the only way He has ever asked us to show Him that we love Him. It's not by praying or going to church; it's through obedience. Most christians, though, can't imagine another believer obeying only out of love, but thousands all over the world are doing just that. Deut 30:1-4

Jesus said in Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Here's where it is stated who can enter the New Jerusalem (most Christians assume that they will be able to) through, BTW, one of the 12 tribal gates. Rev 22:14,15

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

My hope is for a nice place on the ocean, and some prime Georgia QDM deer hunting land. Oh, and I'd be happy with my wife there with me....even if we aren't married.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Our works are a result of our faith. Just like our motives behind keeping the law are just as important as actually keeping the law. Our good works are a result of our faith in Christ. Good fruit.

If works are a result of our faith, what are morals? What I'm getting at is if we are all hopeless and without God before salvation. If we can't do good works until after salvation?

How do Hindu and Atheist do good works or at least have good morals?

 

[Bob2010]

My motive for keeping God's Law is to show Him that I love Him. (I Jn 5:3) Obedience is the only way He has ever asked us to show Him that we love Him. It's not by praying or going to church; it's through obedience. Most christians, though, can't imagine another believer obeying only out of love, but thousands all over the world are doing just that. Deut 30:1-4

Jesus said in Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Here's where it is stated who can enter the New Jerusalem (most Christians assume that they will be able to) through, BTW, one of the 12 tribal gates. Rev 22:14,15

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

My hope is for a nice place on the ocean, and some prime Georgia QDM deer hunting land. Oh, and I'd be happy with my wife there with me....even if we aren't married.

This is awesome! I agree with all of it. So the Jewish people messed up the feast for us Christians. We could be obedient and still be saved by Christ Blood. The feast is how He wants us to celebrate him. We just do Christmas and Easter instead.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

This is awesome! I agree with all of it. So the Jewish people messed up the feast for us Christians. We could be obedient and still be saved by Christ Blood. The feast is how He wants us to celebrate him. We just do Christmas and Easter instead.

We(my wife and me) celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus by keeping Passover and First Fruits. Passover being the death of the Lamb, and First Fruits being the resurrection. Gentile churches were keeping these feasts well after Jesus left, and we (anyone who attains to the resurrection) will be keeping several in the millenium. Just can't do Easter anymore....too attached to paganism, as a quick Google search will show. Doesn't matter to some, but it does to us. To each his own...

 

[Bob2010]

If works are a result of our faith, what are morals? What I'm getting at is if we are all hopeless and without God before salvation. If we can't do good works until after salvation?

How do Hindu and Atheist do good works or at least have good morals?

You lost me here. I'll tell you why. I had church members go on and on about my testimony. They said the Bible says we don't have the Holy Spirit until we are saved. They didn't! I would venture to say that they still don't! The relationship before salvation was like a Father looking over an ignorant child. After Salvation the relationship is different. This is true if you are one of the elect.i can claim that I am the elect even if people think I am arrogant or claiming to be better than others. I'm not! I should of died several times over. God saved me more than once. There is certainly provision and grace for the ungrateful and still lost. Especially those who are chosen by God to belong to Jesus. We are not hopeless on earth before salvation Christ. We are hopeless for eternity without salvation in Christ. Some go a lifetime and then burn in **** for eternity. I was hopeless before salvation because I was chosen. Yet I still ran away from Christ. That is a hopeless situation! Until you surrender that is. If one creates thier own god to worship than who makes the rules? I can pray to a door knob and get results if I am a wreck. A door Knob could do a better job with my life than I could of done as a teenager. Ultimately I would still make the rules that I chose to live by. Idol worship is just that. We can justify anything because we have rejected the truth. The moral compass does not exist without the truth. The truth is Jesus Christ. If you are saying I couldn't do good works before salvation Christ. That could be true. My motives were never for God before. It's not pleasing to the Lord when a miracle happens and I thank my door Knob and give it the credit instead of acknowledging the Lord. People can do good all day long. They just don't get any brownie points for it. True good works come from good motives. They are fruit that comes from loving Jesus. Even Christians try to earn salvation.

 

[Artfuldodger]

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Since Jesus said all the Law hang on the two Laws of Love, I show my love for God by loving him and loving others. When Jesus came he summed up what it was all about. But I can see how that means different things to different people. To some if may mean to keep all the Law because it hangs on these. I can see it both ways, perhaps it's not a reduction.

 

[Artfuldodger]

You lost me here. I'll tell you why. I had church members go on and on about my testimony. They said the Bible says we don't have the Holy Spirit until we are saved. They didn't! I would venture to say that they still don't! The relationship before salvation was like a Father looking over an ignorant child. After Salvation the relationship is different. This is true if you are one of the elect.i can claim that I am the elect even if people think I am arrogant or claiming to be better than others. I'm not! I should of died several times over. God saved me more than once. There is certainly provision and grace for the ungrateful and still lost. Especially those who are chosen by God to belong to Jesus. We are not hopeless on earth before salvation Christ. We are hopeless for eternity without salvation in Christ. Some go a lifetime and then burn in **** for eternity. I was hopeless before salvation because I was chosen. Yet I still ran away from Christ. That is a hopeless situation! Until you surrender that is. If one creates thier own god to worship than who makes the rules? I can pray to a door knob and get results if I am a wreck. A door Knob could do a better job with my life than I could of done as a teenager. Ultimately I would still make the rules that I chose to live by. Idol worship is just that. We can justify anything because we have rejected the truth. The moral compass does not exist without the truth. The truth is Jesus Christ. If you are saying I couldn't do good works before salvation Christ. That could be true. My motives were never for God before. It's not pleasing to the Lord when a miracle happens and I thank my door Knob and give it the credit instead of acknowledging the Lord. People can do good all day long. They just don't get any brownie points for it. True good works come from good motives. They are fruit that comes from loving Jesus. Even Christians try to earn salvation.

You said; We are not hopeless on earth before salvation (in) Christ.

Ephesians 2:10-13
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. 11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Were they not hopeless without God?

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

I'll sum up the main reasons I am a torah-observant believer in Yeshua (Jesus being His Greek name)

1) Jesus said I'd be great in heaven if I keep God's commandments.
2) John (having direct instruction from Jesus) that obeying God's commandments are how we show Him love.
3) Keeping the commandments will allow me into the New Jerusalem and not be stuck outside.
4) I want to be someone that the devil hates.

The devil doesn't hate Christians who believe in Jesus
The devil doesn't hate Jews who keep the commandments
The devil HATES (and many christians do too as witnessed here lol) a small remnant that believe in Jesus AND keep God's commandments Rev 12:17

Doesn't that make you feel good that the devil doesn't hate you? ;-)

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'll sum up the main reasons I am a torah-observant believer in Yeshua (Jesus being His Greek name)

1) Jesus said I'd be great in heaven if I keep God's commandments.
2) John (having direct instruction from Jesus) that obeying God's commandments are how we show Him love.
3) Keeping the commandments will allow me into the New Jerusalem and not be stuck outside.
4) I want to be someone that the devil hates.

The devil doesn't hate Christians who believe in Jesus
The devil doesn't hate Jews who keep the commandments
The devil HATES (and many christians do too as witnessed here lol) a small remnant that believe in Jesus AND keep God's commandments Rev 12:17

Doesn't that make you feel good that the devil doesn't hate you? ;-)

I don't think Christians hate you for Torah keeping. Do you hate non-Torah keepers?

One more thing to throw out there. Some say when Jesus was teaching about keeping God's commandments, it was because it was before the Cross. Any thoughts on this concept?

 

[Bob2010]

We(my wife and me) celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus by keeping Passover and First Fruits. Passover being the death of the Lamb, and First Fruits being the resurrection. Gentile churches were keeping these feasts well after Jesus left, and we (anyone who attains to the resurrection) will be keeping several in the millenium. Just can't do Easter anymore....too attached to paganism, as a quick Google search will show. Doesn't matter to some, but it does to us. To each his own...

I think this isagood thing.

 

[Bob2010]

I don't think Christians hate you for Torah keeping. Do you hate non-Torah keepers?

One more thing to throw out there. Some say when Jesus was teaching about keeping God's commandments, it was because it was before the Cross. Any thoughts on this concept?

To be clear about the devil. He hates everyone. From experience I can tell you that he is different once you accept Christ as your savior. His game is providing just enough worldly gain to keep us comfortable in his grasp. He becomes vicious when ones heart turns to Christ. God's laws never have been abolished and they never will be on this earth. Keeping the law is a good thing. Just won't save you.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

To be clear about the devil. He hates everyone. From experience I can tell you that he is different once you accept Christ as your savior. His game is providing just enough worldly gain to keep us comfortable in his grasp. He becomes vicious when ones heart turns to Christ. God's laws never have been abolished and they never will be on this earth. Keeping the law is a good thing. Just won't save you.

Correct. Salvation is through faith alone, rewards are of merit.

I find it interesting that in Acts 21, when Paul comes to Jerusalem and is told that people are lying about him, that Paul, James, and lots of believing elders in the council all thought that keeping the commandments was a sign of "walking upright" before God. I constantly read believers spreading those lies about Paul still today...

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

To be clear about the devil. He hates everyone. From experience I can tell you that he is different once you accept Christ as your savior. His game is providing just enough worldly gain to keep us comfortable in his grasp. He becomes vicious when ones heart turns to Christ. God's laws never have been abolished and they never will be on this earth. Keeping the law is a good thing. Just won't save you.

Why do you think in Jesus' Revelation to John, that He says that the Devil specifically hates Christians that keep the commandments? and, as I'm sure you'll agree, they are a small remnant compared to the billions of christians in the world.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

I don't think Christians hate you for Torah keeping. Do you hate non-Torah keepers?

One more thing to throw out there. Some say when Jesus was teaching about keeping God's commandments, it was because it was before the Cross. Any thoughts on this concept?

lol No, my best friends are what I call "Sunday Christians". My best friend and I hash this stuff out all the time.

I think that people who use the cross thing are just holding on to an excuse. The last command Jesus gave, right before dying, was to keep Moses commandments.