Coram Deo

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Since obedience to God's commands, fruits, works, lordship, etc. are a result of salvation and not the cause, why is it so important how we manifest that obedience to God's commands through our fruit in the same way as the next Christian?
Meaning from each other, why can't I show my manifestation differently than someone else?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I still find it really hard to relate to masonic Jews. They seem bent on changing our traditions. Just because it doesn't tell us dates in the bible. Just because the Bible doesn't tell us to celebrate Easter or Christmas. This doesn't make it a sin to celebrate our Savior. Once you accept Jesus as the Messiah you are a Christian. Not A Jew. You can try to keep Gods laws. You can love Jesus as Lord. You can even be baptized. You can celebrate the feast instead of Christmas and Easter. But you is a Christian now! I still haven't figured out why Gon stick us with the Jews on this page. Unless there are not any Jews on this forum? In which case they can be stuck on any of the forum pages. They just a need a home I guess???
Even though there is no longer Jew nor Gentile as far as salvation goes, we still have Jews and Gentiles. That same passage says there is no longer male and female either. Yet we know there is. Paul shows many verses that states there is a difference. It doesn't pertain to salvation but Paul has different rules & roles for men and women.

Plus Judaism is such a core and interwoven part of Christianity, it would be impossible to remove it, even if one wanted to. Do a quick read of Romans 11 and tell me how Physical, natural Israel is not a part of Christianity. We are grafted in. It's not like they are trying to "change" our religion and make it Jewish, it already is.
Gentiles did not suddenly become the chosen and the Jews cast to the side. Romans 11 does the best explanation of it all better than I can.
 

BANDERSNATCH

Senior Member
Since obedience to God's commands, fruits, works, lordship, etc. are a result of salvation and not the cause, why is it so important how we manifest that obedience to God's commands through our fruit in the same way as the next Christian?
Meaning from each other, why can't I show my manifestation differently than someone else?

It is the only way He has asked us to show Him love. John 14:21 I John 5:3

I think many Christians struggle with believing that a believer could possibly obey Him out of love only. It's evident in this forum. If someone is keeping the commandments, surely they are doing it as a way to earn salvation! lol There also seems to be a belief that God doesn't want us to even try to obey if we can't do it perfectly. lol It may be an excuse, though, for those who don't want anything to do with God's Law Proverbs 28:9

Many are okay with religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with their life. ;-)
 

M80

Useles Billy’s Spiritual Counselor
To be clear about the devil. He hates everyone. From experience I can tell you that he is different once you accept Christ as your savior. His game is providing just enough worldly gain to keep us comfortable in his grasp. He becomes vicious when ones heart turns to Christ. God's laws never have been abolished and they never will be on this earth. Keeping the law is a good thing. Just won't save you.
So you have said your elected yet you also say here “once you accept Christ as your savior”. That looks like a decision and not a force of God to make you chosen. Which it reality is free will that you accepted him. Which if you didn’t “accept him” you would still be lost.
Election just breaks my heart that folks actually believe that.
From years past I’ve been round and round with folks in here about election and they still believe in election and I still believe in free will and that “whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”. My list goes on and on.
What actually hurt me the worst was I asked someone on this forum “if God chose to save one of your sons and the other was chosen for he!! Hiw would that make you feel”. He replied “we serve a just God and if that’s what he chose to do I would be alright with that”
????
 
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Artfuldodger

Senior Member
It is the only way He has asked us to show Him love. John 14:21 I John 5:3

I think many Christians struggle with believing that a believer could possibly obey Him out of love only. It's evident in this forum. If someone is keeping the commandments, surely they are doing it as a way to earn salvation! lol There also seems to be a belief that God doesn't want us to even try to obey if we can't do it perfectly. lol It may be an excuse, though, for those who don't want anything to do with God's Law Proverbs 28:9

Many are okay with religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with their life. ;-)
I do think the idea of what it means to obey God has changed over the years among Christians even in my life time. I asked on this forum years ago what it meant and most said it means believe, confess, and repent. To believe in the Good News.

Back when I was a kid it was to try and not sin. To follow the 10 commandments. To help the sick and feed the poor. To witness and spread the Gospel. Keep the Sabbath Holy and not go to restaurants, etc. Don't hunt and fish on the Sabbath. Forgive your brother, Don't commit adultery. Oh and we couldn't use God's name in vain and call our brother a fool.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
It is the only way He has asked us to show Him love. John 14:21 I John 5:3

I think many Christians struggle with believing that a believer could possibly obey Him out of love only. It's evident in this forum. If someone is keeping the commandments, surely they are doing it as a way to earn salvation! lol There also seems to be a belief that God doesn't want us to even try to obey if we can't do it perfectly. lol It may be an excuse, though, for those who don't want anything to do with God's Law Proverbs 28:9

Many are okay with religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with their life. ;-)
Something I also remember from past discussions was salvation was 100% from grace except when it comes to homosexuals. Then the discussion quickly changed to how important works was for salvation. I mean the struggling alcoholic didn't have to change but the poor soul of the homosexual was in jeopardy if he didn't.
I could just keep on keepin' on in my sins, whatever they are, and ways, whatever they are, because my salvation by grace gave me that liberty. But not the homosexual.
Just like freedom, we don't like to share our liberty in Christ. Christians don't even like to share that. To many you can only gain that liberty if you manifest it in fruits the same way they do.
I think even though people like to spout grace, when you really get down to talking to them, you'll see that works is way more important than what they lead you to believe.

We do love to share salvation through Christ, that's not the problem. Sharing the liberty of that salvation is the problem.
 
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gemcgrew

Senior Member
So you have said your elected yet you also say here “once you accept Christ as your savior”. That looks like a decision and not a force of God to make you chosen. Which it reality is free will that you accepted him. Which if you didn’t “accept him” you would still be lost.
Every one of the elect accept Christ as Savior. There is no other Place for them to go.

Free will is highly esteemed among men as an attribute of man. Some will worshippers even put it in the name of their local church.
Election just breaks my heart that folks actually believe that.
And some folks actually believe what Scripture says about election. They will not place their feelings for you... above their reverence for God.
From years past I’ve been round and round with folks in here about election and they still believe in election and I still believe in free will and that “whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”. My list goes on and on.
Those that believe election know why and how “whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”.
What actually hurt me the worst was I asked someone on this forum “if God chose to save one of your sons and the other was chosen for he!! Hiw would that make you feel”. He replied “we serve a just God and if that’s what he chose to do I would be alright with that”
????
Of course the believer would be alright with that. To not be would indicate that they would do it differently.
 

Bob2010

Senior Member
We are tumbling down conversations that will and has split churches in the past. I like that I can have these conversations here and not at my church. My post is simple. Faith alone in Christ Jesus is all that will save us. By putting Christianity on the same forum page as Judaism conflict is created imediatly. Martin Luther spent a lifetime trying to get the Jewish people to accept salvation through thier own Messiah Jesus Christ. He was not successful and he went crazy later in his life. The prophecy made it clear that Jesus is the Messiah. This fact is confirmed by the statement " The Jewish people have no temple or path to salvation today". They no longer sacrifice animals and shed blood to be forgiven or made righteous. Jews today have a sin problem and simply refuse to accept the Lord's spectacular gift of salvation through Christ Jesus. The bible says the Jewish people are God's chosen children. The Messiah was God's gift to His children. The Jewish people certainly were not the elect. They would have accepted thier own Messiah if they were the elect. No one on this forum has kept God's law perfectly. None of you are without sin! Only Jesus could keep God's law perfectly. Jesus is the only man that could keep God's law perfectly. Jesus preached several times about God's law. If Jesus came to abolish the law he would not have kept it perfectly. Jesus teaches us that God's law is important. Our intentions behind keeping the law are just as important as keeping the law. If you keep God's law in hope's of salvation or simply to look good in front of others. This means nothing to the Lord. Your reward for that is not in Heaven. Your reward for arrogance is right here on earth. Your reward is feeling better than others etc. The New testament does not take away from God's law. God's law exist for the same reason that sin exist. Without sin who would need Jesus? My statement of the law is meant to be used against us is true. Does God not have authority over Satan? By design we can't keep God's law perfectly. Therefore we need to evaluate our motives and seek forgiveness through our Savior Christ Jesus. When we are read our rights it says. " anything you say or do can be used against you". Not for you! That doesn't mean God's law is bad. Just means our motives in keeping the law are just as important as actually keeping the law. So what will save you Jewish people? Why did the Jewish people sacrifice animals? Did you kill your beloved family cat the last time you sinned? Would you arrogantly storm into the tabernacle? Into the most Holy place? In the presence of the Lord? With your head held high? No shame in your game? What vessel does a Jewish person have to go directly to the Lord without Jesus. What will you do with that filthy sin? So we Christians must assume that the Jew must believe the feast will save them. Jews are good for the year after the feast! Shall we Christians unite in this forum with Jewish people? Did our Jesus die for nothing? What does faith alone in Christ Jesus mean to you?

1. What's more arrogant?
Keeping the law in order to look good.
Keeping the Law in order to be saved.
Believing that you are one of God's elect.

Shall we stay quiet about this spectacular gift of salvation through Christ Jesus because we are lumped together on this forum page? Is it not possible that our Lord is so BIG that free will and election both exist together as biblical truth. We just can't wrap our tiny minds around it? Jesus alone is our salvation!
 

BANDERSNATCH

Senior Member
Bandersnatch never said he kept the Law in order to be saved nor did he do it to look good.

He does it the same reason most of us show fruit or works. It's a way to show obedience and love to to God.

Thank you, Art. absolutely true. I had lived the grace life my entire christian life but when I learned how God asked me to show love and appreciation, it was a done deal for me. I'm already saved, no different than any of you, as long as I hold to faith in Him and His atoning work. Obedience won't make me more saved, either. lol

The walk I walk is not for everyone, and few will walk this way. A "remnant" of God's family, if you will. Rev 12:17 "the REMNANT of the seed of the woman, who believe in Jesus and keep God's commandments".
 

Bob2010

Senior Member
Thank you, Art. absolutely true. I had lived the grace life my entire christian life but when I learned how God asked me to show love and appreciation, it was a done deal for me. I'm already saved, no different than any of you, as long as I hold to faith in Him and His atoning work. Obedience won't make me more saved, either. lol

The walk I walk is not for everyone, and few will walk this way. A "remnant" of God's family, if you will. Rev 12:17 "the REMNANT of the seed of the woman, who believe in Jesus and keep God's commandments".

I certainly don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. I was responding to everyone as a whole in my remarks. Good works being a result of fruit to me is the same as keeping the law as a result of pure intentions. Why we do what we do is important to the Lord. Jesus changed that for us. Before Christ ones intentions behind keeping the law didn't matter. I assume that is the same today in the Jewish faith. I still just wonder if the forum lumped us together so that followers of Christ can minister to the few Jewish people that are on the forum? Or was the intent to create conflict and hard conversations? Are Christians still considered another sect of Judaism? Did a atheist lump us together? Was there intentions behind this or did someone simply not care enough to separate us? Can you imagine if they lumped us in with the Atheist page? That would not fly. One group denied thier own Savior. The other group would die for the Lord Jesus.
 

BANDERSNATCH

Senior Member
I certainly don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. I was responding to everyone as a whole in my remarks. Good works being a result of fruit to me is the same as keeping the law as a result of pure intentions. Why we do what we do is important to the Lord. Jesus changed that for us. Before Christ ones intentions behind keeping the law didn't matter. I assume that is the same today in the Jewish faith. I still just wonder if the forum lumped us together so that followers of Christ can minister to the few Jewish people that are on the forum? Or was the intent to create conflict and hard conversations? Are Christians still considered another sect of Judaism? Did a atheist lump us together? Was there intentions behind this or did someone simply not care enough to separate us? Can you imagine if they lumped us in with the Atheist page? That would not fly. One group denied thier own Savior. The other group would die for the Lord Jesus.

I do like that there are "off limits" areas within the Spiritual Forum, otherwise, it would be an absolute mess. IMO, if you don't have thick skin, stay out of the AAA or Spiritual Discuss areas lol

BTW, Christianity was all Jewish in the beginning so, in a way, it is a Jewish sect. :) To the Jew first, and also to the Greek....
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
The Athiest Subforum was made and put here in 2009.
Before that wasn't there just one religious forum? I think it's divided up enough already.
If one didn't want to submit a topic on the Christianity & Judaism sub-forum, then they could submit it on the Spiritual Discussions & Study forum.

I do remember in the past having more Jewish and Messianic Jews that posted.
 

Bob2010

Senior Member
How is your fruit example different than this?
matt 5:17 jesus fulfills Law
matt 5:18 Law is forever lol
matt 5:19 You will be great in heaven if you keep the law
rev 22:14,15 You will be blessed in heaven if you keep the commandments.

Isn't obeying God's commands after salvation the same as "fruit?" Fruit, works, law keeping, keeping God's commands is all the same thing isn't it?

The only problem I see performing fruits or keeping God's commandments would be doing it for the rewards. Yet wouldn't seeking one's on salvation be for the reward of eternal life. Just to ask for salvation is sorta self centered. I mean unless you are doing it for God and not to save your own soul.

My point was just that our salvation is through grace. The problem with the rewards thing is that if we only do the right thing for the later reward. Then we did the right thing for the wrong reason. Our reward is then recieved here on earth right at that moment. The reward is the arrogance or whatever feel good feeling we got for doing the right thing. Rewards in Heaven come from our good fruit. When we do the right things for the right reason. The scriptures say that Christ didn't come to abolish the law. Christ came to live the law perfectly. Christ was the only one that could do that. Christ came to show us that our motives behind keeping the law matter just as much as us actually keeping the law. Our faith in Christ does certainly save us. But I have reached a place in my life where I believe it's Christ blood and Christ power that saves me. I don't know that me simply making a choice to love Jesus will save me. Is it my choice or Christ blood that will save me? Which is more powerful? I have no doubt that the law is to be used against us. God created Satan and he is allowed to exist by God. So I have no doubt that God can be wrathful or create laws that none of us can keep perfectly. The officer arresting me will say the things I do and say will be used AGAINST me. Not used to help me. The point of any laws are to condemn those that do do not keep them. God's laws are a wonderful thing. We couldn't collectively come close to creating 10 perfect laws that encompasses everything. My original point was that keeping the law won't save us any more than my own choice will without Christ blood and His power.
 
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