Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

Thread starter #241
Come on, it wont hurt (much), you can admit they tell the same story :rofl:
And by the same story, I mean the "big picture".
I already acknowledged that a long time ago. “He said something and then died.” Ok... If that’s as deep as we want to go in looking at the accounts in evaluating their reliability then yes at that high level they are in agreement. That’s not the question we are discussing. The question I have repeated many times now is what were his last words? And the answer to that question depends on which gospel you read. They are not the same in their answer to that question and I already explained how that difference could be demonstrated. Police don’t put every witness together in a room so they can get their story straight if they want to know the veracity of a witness. They take their accounts separately and then compare the accounts in detail.
 
Those are good bullethead. I guess I’m looking for more than another Writers opinion since we have to have evidence.
Meaning - what’s out there that you or any Writer in those links have to hang your hats on that you know for certain what Jesus did or didn’t say?
Here is the deal. We each have no actual proof of what was or what was not said. We only have writings from writers who were not there either.
So then we have to go beyond our guesses and look into the laws regarding Who gets crucified. We have to look at the methods and practices of Cruxifition. We have to take into account the purposeful ways people were crucified in order to gain the desired results. We have to take into account the determinations of modern medical examiners who tell us what crucifixion does to the parts of the body and what a person is or is not capable of doing during the various stages of crucifixion.
We have to take into account 4 different writers(although two are so similar that it is accepted that one is a copy of another) miraculously being together at all the same times and all the same places to witness Jesus all along his 3 years of known existence and yet they all say something different than the others. Last words differ, numbers of people present differ, who and number of people at and inside the tomb differ and on and on and on....
To read it at face value like you do, yeah I can see why you have no other choice than to believe like you do.
I go beyond face value and with research I try to decide what is more likely than not.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I already acknowledged that a long time ago. “He said something and then died.” Ok... If that’s as deep as we want to go in looking at the accounts in evaluating their reliability then yes at that high level they are in agreement. That’s not the question we are discussing. The question I have repeated many times now is what were his last words? And the answer to that question depends on which gospel you read. They are not the same in their answer to that question and I already explained how that difference could be demonstrated. Police don’t put every witness together in a room so they can get their story straight if they want to know the veracity of a witness. They take their accounts separately and then compare the accounts in detail.
Look at the second sentence in bullets post above ^^^^^^^
Outside of that second sentence it’s just a chicken race to try and prove his very last word or words unless you were there to hear them. He might have asked for more vinegar and no one heard him.
 
They are believed to be God’s words. But there is no indication given anyplace to clarify if God only gave portions of things to different Writers or if the Writers added or eliminated words. If they added or eliminated anything, then it’s Writers words. Without a transcript we have nothing to prove / disprove any of that.
The point that Atlas and bullet wants to make is that the Writers are simply contradictory, ultimately pointing to writing based on stories they heard. They don’t know that, the believe that.
Spotlite, without the actual original texts properly translated there is a far greater chance that you are hanging your beliefs on writings that are not even close to what was originally said, and the originals most likely have nothing to do with anything Divine anyway.
 
Look at the second sentence in bullets post above ^^^^^^^
Outside of that it’s just a chicken race to try and prove his very last word or words unless you were there to hear them. He might have asked for more vinegar and no one heard him.
No, the second sentence is not the do all end all.
I expounded upon that second sentence in order to show you the other ways available to be able to form a more educated opinion.
 
Look at the second sentence in bullets post above ^^^^^^^
Outside of that second sentence it’s just a chicken race to try and prove his very last word or words unless you were there to hear them. He might have asked for more vinegar and no one heard him.
Did God hear him?
Is God capable of getting that information known?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
No, the second sentence is not the do all end all.
I expounded upon that second sentence in order to show you the other ways available to be able to form a more educated opinion.
The second sentence is the end of the road unless you were there, or have the full unaltered quoted verbatim transcript. Everything else is just your expounded opinion. Which is ok, but it’s still just an opinion.
 
I can see both sides of the debate.
I think I can agree that the words can be a bit different without actually contradicting each other -
"The flower is red".
"The flower is crimson".
Different words. Overall means pretty much the same thing.
But not exactly the same thing.
Is that good enough when it comes to God's words?
Yes and No in my opinion.
There was One Red flower
There were Four crimson flowers.

Replace red/crimson flowers with Roman Guards, Angels, Women, Witnesses...etc etc and Specific Numbers mean Specific things.
 
Thread starter #251
Look at the second sentence in bullets post above ^^^^^^^
Outside of that second sentence it’s just a chicken race to try and prove his very last word or words unless you were there to hear them. He might have asked for more vinegar and no one heard him.
I’ve never claimed knowledge of what he said. In fact I said I don’t know nor do I need to. I don’t know why you continue to ignore that. One witness says your deer ran 100 yards to the east and dropped dead. Another witness says your deer ran 100 yards to the west and dropped dead. You say he dropped dead right where you shot him. I wasn’t there and I don’t know which if any account is true but I already know from the accounts that they can’t all be true. Even if you tried to merge them and say well actually it ran east and then west before dying you would still be contradicting the other two accounts.

Yo do not need to know what actually happened to identify incompatible accounts. Police and courts do this all the time. If that concept is lost on you I can’t help you.
 
Well yeah, it took 4 Gospels to finally get those last two sentences in ::ke:::ke:::ke:::ke::bounce:
No, even you admit that you don't know if the sentences are even correct.
Makes me wonder how accurate Jesus's words were throughout the Gospels, especially when it was just Jesus and One other person who absolutely was not the authors.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
No, even you admit that you don't know if the sentences are even correct.
Makes me wonder how accurate Jesus's words were throughout the Gospels, especially when it was just Jesus and One other person who absolutely was not the authors.
My question to you is how do you know they’re incorrect to be able to claim anything? I’ve admitted that I don’t know everything that was said, how can you possibly know? Without that knowledge you’ve nothing left except to either believe or not believe. You and Atlas are speaking as if you know exactly what was or wasn’t said. If you know for sure they’re inconsistent, show which one is accurate and show how you know. If they’re all wrong, show that. But please show something other than what you believe by using some solid evidence of what Jesus actually said.
 
The second sentence is the end of the road unless you were there, or have the full unaltered quoted verbatim transcript. Everything else is just your expounded opinion. Which is ok, but it’s still just an opinion.
Sorry, but it is not the end of the road.
It is the beginning from where to start researching.
When you use the examples of research that I've given you which tell about the laws, practices, methods, bodies capabilities under the ways of crucifixion etc etc, it paints a picture that what is written is not particularly true in some areas and more likely completely false in others.
Your point is only accurate if we have to stop with what is written in the bible and there are no other means of checking into it further.
Luckily we can check into it further.
 
Thread starter #255
My question to you is how do you know they’re incorrect to be able to claim anything? I’ve admitted that I don’t know everything that was said, how can you possibly know? Without that knowledge you’ve nothing left except to either believe or not believe. You and Atlas are speaking as if you know exactly what was or wasn’t said. If you know for sure they’re inconsistent, show which one is accurate and show how you know. If they’re all wrong, show that. But please show something other than what you believe by using some solid evidence of what Jesus actually said.
facepalm:
 
My question to you is how do you know they’re incorrect to be able to claim anything? I’ve admitted that I don’t know everything that was said, how can you possibly know? Without that knowledge you’ve nothing left except to either believe or not believe. You and Atlas are speaking as if you know exactly what was or wasn’t said. If you know for sure they’re inconsistent, show which one is accurate and show how you know. If they’re all wrong, show that. But please show something other than what you believe by using some solid evidence of what Jesus actually said.
Are you not reading what Atlas and I post?
4 gospels total
2 of which are so similar that one is a copy of the other.
2 more Gospels which say things differently than the 2 above and differently from each other.
Even if one is spot on no questions asked 100% correct, the others are not.
You tell us which one is spot on 100% accurate.
 
The second sentence is the end of the road unless you were there, or have the full unaltered quoted verbatim transcript. Everything else is just your expounded opinion. Which is ok, but it’s still just an opinion.
Opinion based upon research.
Much different than opinion based off of what makes sense in my head.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I’ve never claimed knowledge of what he said. In fact I said I don’t know nor do I need to. I don’t know why you continue to ignore that. One witness says your deer ran 100 yards to the east and dropped dead. Another witness says your deer ran 100 yards to the west and dropped dead. You say he dropped dead right where you shot him. I wasn’t there and I don’t know which if any account is true but I already know from the accounts that they can’t all be true. Even if you tried to merge them and say well actually it ran east and then west before dying you would still be contradicting the other two accounts.

Yo do not need to know what actually happened to identify incompatible accounts. Police and courts do this all the time. If that concept is lost on you I can’t help you.
Sure reports are incomplete everywhere. But that’s not your argument. If that was your complete argument we would have agreed several post back when I acknowledged the stories differ in words. Your argument is to use differing accounts to prove that the Gospels are not God inspired, just man made stories.
 

Madman

Senior Member
2019 Apologetic award goes to....
No need to make an argument what you said was simply not true.
Just a terrible biased translation. One only needs to read chapter 1 to see what Polycarp believes. Try this one; http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0136.htm
I didn't realize you were a Latin/Greek/Hebrew Scholar.
All one has to do is read the writings of Polycarp, in context, and it is evident to understand exactly what he believed.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Opinion based upon research.
Much different than opinion based off of what makes sense in my head.
Well let’s see the research. But somewhere in that research, show us evidence that someone, anyone or no one recorded his last words verbatim.
 
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