Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

Thread starter #621
Ok gotcha. The fact that you ask thus question is evidence that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
That’s why I asked you to explain why. Enlighten me. Explain why you think prayer is not testable or it’s outcomes detectable.
 
It’s my money on the line.
Oh I know.
But if you are "in on it" I could easily be persuaded to ante up also.

I am just trying to show Spotlite that things are not always as they seem.
I have no reason to doubt his story except that I have every reason to doubt the accuracy of his story.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Oh I know.
But if you are "in on it" I could easily be persuaded to ante up also.

I am just trying to show Spotlite that things are not always as they seem.
I have no reason to doubt his story except that I have every reason to doubt the accuracy of his story.
And I’m trying to show you the same ;)

But apparently, you have everything figured out lol
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
That’s why I asked you to explain why. Enlighten me. Explain why you think prayer is not testable or it’s outcomes detectable.
Not this time. You’re good at throwing a conclusion out there and asking others to explain to you........

I will even take a neutral position for now and go with the entire Bible as a fictional story.

Based on this fictional story that’s full of scripture about prayer - you were saying “prayer doesn’t work”??? I want you to explain to me everything this fictional story has to say about prayer (answered and unanswered) in order for me to agree with you.

If you’re asking me to enlighten you, you don’t know enough about the story to dispute it.....so why are you making a predetermined conclusion, and hanging your hat on it as anything solid, let alone, intellectual??
 
Not this time. You’re good at throwing a conclusion out there and asking others to explain to you........

I will even take a neutral position for now and go with the entire Bible as a fictional story.

Based on this fictional story that’s full of scripture about prayer - you were saying “prayer doesn’t work”??? I want you to explain to me everything this fictional story has to say about prayer (answered and unanswered) in order for me to agree with you.

If you’re asking me to enlighten you, you don’t know enough about the story to dispute it.....so why are you making a predetermined conclusion, and hanging your hat on it as anything solid, let alone, intellectual??
Watch what you ask for...
 
Thread starter #627
Not this time. You’re good at throwing a conclusion out there and asking others to explain to you........

I will even take a neutral position for now and go with the entire Bible as a fictional story.

Based on this fictional story that’s full of scripture about prayer - you were saying “prayer doesn’t work”??? I want you to explain to me everything this fictional story has to say about prayer (answered and unanswered) in order for me to agree with you.

If you’re asking me to enlighten you, you don’t know enough about the story to dispute it.....so why are you making a predetermined conclusion, and hanging your hat on it as anything solid, let alone, intellectual??
I’m asking about your conclusion that prayer cannot be tested. That’s your conclusion. Not mine. Explain what leads you to that conclusion.
 
Thread starter #628
Am I setting the bar too high by testing prayer with something unlikely to happen on its own? Would it be better if we test it with a coin flip? Or maybe even this guys test? Is this the level of efficacy one should expect of prayer based on scripture?

 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I have a good grasp of what is more likely than not.
Good, me too.
Watch what you ask for...
lol not worried, based on history........another cow trail diversion from you two
I’m asking about your conclusion that prayer cannot be tested. That’s your conclusion. Not mine. Explain what leads you to that conclusion.
it answers itself when you use all scripture, but I will work on it.

In the meantime, you work on your conclusion and let’s stay focused on your claim as well???? (YouTube videos don’t answer it)
 
Thread starter #630
Good, me too.

lol not worried, based on history........another cow trail diversion from you two
it answers itself when you use all scripture, but I will work on it.

In the meantime, you work on your conclusion and let’s stay focused on your claim as well???? (YouTube videos don’t answer it)
You’re working on it? What is there to work on? Don’t you know why you said what you did? I’ve already shown multiple scriptures that cite Jesus saying whoever believes will receive whatever they ask in prayer. He also says believers will be able to perform the same miracles as him and even greater miracles. Both of those claims are testable hypotheses. Even you have made claims of observable real world results of prayer. If you can observe and measure an outcome then you can test claims of altering the probability of an outcome. Especially when the claim sets the standard of saying prayer “will” or “shall” work.
 
Thread starter #631
If you get cancer will you go to a doctor for treatment or would you rely solely on faith?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
You’re working on it? What is there to work on? Don’t you know why you said what you did? I’ve already shown multiple scriptures that cite Jesus saying whoever believes will receive whatever they ask in prayer. He also says believers will be able to perform the same miracles as him and even greater miracles. Both of those claims are testable hypotheses. Even you have made claims of observable real world results of prayer. If you can observe and measure an outcome then you can test claims of altering the probability of an outcome. Especially when the claim sets the standard of saying prayer “will” or “shall” work.
Yes I’m working on it slowly, I already know, and if you did, you’d know how silly you sound. It’s really worth looking at prior to baking such statements as the above.

The problem with debating with you and bullet is the continuous diversions. I’m going to keep answering your questions and you’ll never end up producing anything.

Here’s an example, someone will tell me I should jump at the opportunity to give my testimony. Me knowing better, I do, and I simply ask about my situation only. Rather than giving the only honest answer that the two of you can give, you want to test something else in an experiment, bullet wants to know what’s in your envelope. And from there.......neither of you never end up answering my question with anything other than your biased opinion of what it can’t be.

As of now, I will just assume that you two don’t know, and leave it there. Looking at anything objectively is not something you’re familiar with.
 
Thread starter #633
Yes I’m working on it slowly, I already know, and if you did, you’d know how silly you sound. It’s really worth looking at prior to baking such statements as the above.

The problem with debating with you and bullet is the continuous diversions. I’m going to keep answering your questions and you’ll never end up producing anything.

Here’s an example, someone will tell me I should jump at the opportunity to give my testimony. Me knowing better, I do, and I simply ask about my situation only. Rather than giving the only honest answer that the two of you can give, you want to test something else in an experiment, bullet wants to know what’s in your envelope. And from there.......neither of you never end up answering my question with anything other than your biased opinion of what it can’t be.

As of now, I will just assume that you two don’t know, and leave it there. Looking at anything objectively is not something you’re familiar with.
An objective analysis of prayer is what we are trying to get to and what you seem to be avoiding. Go back and see again posts 542 and 546. I only asked to explore the underpinnings of your claim that prayer can’t be tested because you made it and it matters. If that is a diversion it’s one of your own making.

I’ve offered an objective test of the efficacy of prayer and put a good bit of money as well as my own position on Christianity on the line. It’s a serious offer. Your response? Trite and dismissive. Exactly what I would expect of a charlatan who knows the jig is up. Not what I would expect of a true believer.
 
Yes I’m working on it slowly, I already know, and if you did, you’d know how silly you sound. It’s really worth looking at prior to baking such statements as the above.

The problem with debating with you and bullet is the continuous diversions. I’m going to keep answering your questions and you’ll never end up producing anything.

Here’s an example, someone will tell me I should jump at the opportunity to give my testimony. Me knowing better, I do, and I simply ask about my situation only. Rather than giving the only honest answer that the two of you can give, you want to test something else in an experiment, bullet wants to know what’s in your envelope. And from there.......neither of you never end up answering my question with anything other than your biased opinion of what it can’t be.

As of now, I will just assume that you two don’t know, and leave it there. Looking at anything objectively is not something you’re familiar with.
We try to eliminate the variables before we can give a truly honest answer. Using you and your description as our only source is a good basis to start with and if that was the only way available the odds seem to be in your favor. But, there are others ways...testable ways for us to confirm or deny your claims.
You are willing to take an outcome and automatically link it to your god.
We would like to test it and then make a decision on why or why not it holds up.
You should jump at the chance to literally show us an example of what you believe in. You have the opportunity to showcase the powers at work. Instead you wrongly claim that we are diverting the truth when in fact we are giving you, your pastor and every other religious person a means and a way to accomplish an act of god in a testable way that we as non believers and skeptics can not only understand but accept.
How could the envelope test possibly be a bad thing for you and all the other believers in God? According to many your God is more than capable, according to you your Pastor talks to your God, and you talk to us.

Either you are confident this WILL Work or you are not.
One will have you accept
The other will have you make excuses and dodge.
 
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The efficacy of prayer is not rationally provable because: if supplicatory prayer is not an act of submission it is then a demand. Therefore, determination of efficacy requires knowledge of the heart of the prayer; such knowledge is not within the power of men.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
The efficacy of prayer is not rationally provable because: if supplicatory prayer is not an act of submission it is then a demand. Therefore, determination of efficacy requires knowledge of the heart of the prayer; such knowledge is not within the power of men.
I think you can get some pretty strong clues though.
"Oh please God let my loved one survive this car crash however I will live with your decision and worship you regardless of what you decide in your infinite wisdom"
vs.
"God let my loved one survive or Im gonna drop you like a hot potato".
Pretty strong clues of whats in their heart.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
If you get cancer will you go to a doctor for treatment or would you rely solely on faith?
This is actually a real struggle that usually results in grief because as a Christian, with the biblical mandate of faith, we realize our faith is 'less" than a mustard seed. I can't put into words the extent that our faith becomes a crisis, not faith in God exists but rather faith that the bible healing stories are there for us. We battle in the mind that the treatments that we elect to take because we don't have the faith not to, is a result of a lack of faith that we fail to muster up. When my wife was going through cancer, cancer free now probably over 15 years, thank God, I was struggling over this. In the end, looking backwards, I would not have that same struggle. However, it was a bridge I crossed. My point in this is that you brought up a point that you may not have realized was a BIG point.
 
The efficacy of prayer is not rationally provable because: if supplicatory prayer is not an act of submission it is then a demand. Therefore, determination of efficacy requires knowledge of the heart of the prayer; such knowledge is not within the power of men.
The contents of the pastor's heart should qualify. And it is but a small task to gain more followers.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
This is actually a real struggle that usually results in grief because as a Christian, with the biblical mandate of faith, we realize our faith is 'less" than a mustard seed. I can't put into words the extent that our faith becomes a crisis, not faith in God exists but rather faith that the bible healing stories are there for us. We battle in the mind that the treatments that we elect to take because we don't have the faith not to, is a result of a lack of faith that we fail to muster up. When my wife was going through cancer, cancer free now probably over 15 years, thank God, I was struggling over this. In the end, looking backwards, I would not have that same struggle. However, it was a bridge I crossed. My point in this is that you brought up a point that you may not have realized was a BIG point.
1st -
Glad to hear your wife is/has been cancer free.
2nd-
Glad to hear the decision was made to get medical help.
3rd -
Not sure Ive ever fully considered the internal strife that kind of decision might cause a Christian.
Easy for us (A/As) to say "well only an idiot wouldn't get medical help".
 
Thread starter #640
1st -
Glad to hear your wife is/has been cancer free.
2nd-
Glad to hear the decision was made to get medical help.
3rd -
Not sure Ive ever fully considered the internal strife that kind of decision might cause a Christian.
Easy for us (A/As) to say "well only an idiot wouldn't get medical help".
If prayer works as advertised whence the internal strife?
 
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