Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

Thread starter #641
The efficacy of prayer is not rationally provable because: if supplicatory prayer is not an act of submission it is then a demand. Therefore, determination of efficacy requires knowledge of the heart of the prayer; such knowledge is not within the power of men.

Does it? If a believer prays for something against massive odds and the prayer is answered do I need to know their heart to observe the answered prayer? Now if it repeatedly fails to beat the odds I suppose you could just claim that the problem wasn't the prayer but their heart and who can tell you otherwise? The problem with that position is we are chock full of people who claim their prayers do achieve real world results so whatever criteria you want to claim for the prayer to work, they are claiming they have met that criteria and do it with great enough frequency to keep them praying and recommending prayer.
 
Thread starter #643
This is actually a real struggle that usually results in grief because as a Christian, with the biblical mandate of faith, we realize our faith is 'less" than a mustard seed. I can't put into words the extent that our faith becomes a crisis, not faith in God exists but rather faith that the bible healing stories are there for us. We battle in the mind that the treatments that we elect to take because we don't have the faith not to, is a result of a lack of faith that we fail to muster up. When my wife was going through cancer, cancer free now probably over 15 years, thank God, I was struggling over this. In the end, looking backwards, I would not have that same struggle. However, it was a bridge I crossed. My point in this is that you brought up a point that you may not have realized was a BIG point.

I'm sure it is a big point for many. But why should it be? Why should a believer have faith less than a mustard seed? It's easy to proclaim the benefits of prayer and the power of it when little or nothing is at stake. But how many hold the belief so strongly they would bet their life on it? Some do. In my experience they are a very small minority. Are the rest being irrational or rational in their doubt?
 

ambush80

Senior Member
I'm sure it is a big point for many. But why should it be? Why should a believer have faith less than a mustard seed? It's easy to proclaim the benefits of prayer and the power of it when little or nothing is at stake. But how many hold the belief so strongly they would bet their life on it? Some do. In my experience they are a very small minority. Are the rest being irrational or rational in their doubt?
Boilerplate answer #8:

"The Lord helps those who help themselves".

There's the joke about the pious man adrift at sea and a boat comes to rescue him and he denies their help and says "I'm waiting for the Lord to save me". Then a plane comes and he says "I'm waithing for the Lord to save me". Then a helicopter comes and he says the same thing. Eventually he dies at sea and when he gets to Heaven he asks the Lord "Why didn't you save me?" and the Lord says "What do you mean? I sent a boat and a plane and a helicopter."
 
Thread starter #645
Boilerplate answer #8:

"The Lord helps those who help themselves".

There's the joke about the pious man adrift at sea and a boat comes to rescue him and he denies their help and says "I'm waiting for the Lord to save me". Then a plane comes and he says "I'm waithing for the Lord to save me". Then a helicopter comes and he says the same thing. Eventually he dies at sea and when he gets to Heaven he asks the Lord "Why didn't you save me?" and the Lord says "What do you mean? I sent a boat and a plane and a helicopter."
Yeah I think we've all heard that apologetic. Don't expect faith to do all the heavy lifting. Just use real world means to help yourself or get help from others and then give god the credit. I wonder how many Jesus prayed for that hedged their bets with a visit to the doctor? How many Christians now living would still go to a doctor if Jesus himself prayed over them? Yet Jesus himself proclaimed believers would have the same miracle working powers he had. How many believers really believe that to the extent they would stake their life on it? How many should based on the real world results of prayer?
 

ambush80

Senior Member
Yeah I think we've all heard that apologetic. Don't expect faith to do all the heavy lifting. Just use real world means to help yourself or get help from others and then give god the credit. I wonder how many Jesus prayed for that hedged their bets with a visit to the doctor? How many Christians now living would still go to a doctor if Jesus himself prayed over them? Yet Jesus himself proclaimed believers would have the same miracle working powers he had. How many believers really believe that to the extent they would stake their life on it? How many should based on the real world results of prayer?
Sometimes Jesus lays his hands on you and takes you home.::ke:
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
If prayer works as advertised whence the internal strife?
You are asking the wrong guy.
But I can certainly understand the internal battle a believer might go through in a life or death type situation of this type.
Maybe Im not militant enough but in this case Im putting empathy over driving a point home.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I'm sure it is a big point for many. But why should it be? Why should a believer have faith less than a mustard seed? It's easy to proclaim the benefits of prayer and the power of it when little or nothing is at stake. But how many hold the belief so strongly they would bet their life on it? Some do. In my experience they are a very small minority. Are the rest being irrational or rational in their doubt?
At that point in my life, i had not yet fully grasped the extent of embellishments in the bible. No one can argue that not one person has ever moved a mountain just by saying for it to move.
 
Thread starter #651
You are asking the wrong guy.
But I can certainly understand the internal battle a believer might go through in a life or death type situation of this type.
Maybe Im not militant enough but in this case Im putting empathy over driving a point home.
I meant just from a logical perspective, why would it even be an issue if someone was genuinely convinced they could put their trust in prayer? The only way there is a battle at all is if there is doubt.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
I meant just from a logical perspective, why would it even be an issue if someone was genuinely convinced they could put their trust in prayer? The only way there is a battle at all is if there is doubt.
Oh I certainly understand and agree with your point.
I guess I kind of look at it like this -
We value and try to live our lives based on logic and reason. Especially when it comes to God/gods/religion.
If some psycho thug had a gun and was forcing you to choose who's brain he was going to scramble, your wife or your child's, Im going to assume it would be a painful decision to logically and reasonably decide which to choose. The fact that you chose logically and reasonably wouldnt be of much comfort to you and I would feel empathy for you that you had to choose at all.
Maybe not a great example but hopefully Im getting my point across.
Or maybe Im trying to say, to turn your above question around a bit, we put our trust in logic and reason but its also quite possible you might choose strictly off of emotion.
I wouldnt make the point that you didnt choose what you believe in - logic.
 
I think you can get some pretty strong clues though.
"Oh please God let my loved one survive this car crash however I will live with your decision and worship you regardless of what you decide in your infinite wisdom"
vs.
"God let my loved one survive or Im gonna drop you like a hot potato".
Pretty strong clues of whats in their heart.
Good illustration, with "pretty strong clues" vs. "rationally provable" and "knowledge of the heart" being noted (although I would prefer just "clues").
 
Does it? If a believer prays for something against massive odds and the prayer is answered do I need to know their heart to observe the answered prayer? Now if it repeatedly fails to beat the odds I suppose you could just claim that the problem wasn't the prayer but their heart and who can tell you otherwise? The problem with that position is we are chock full of people who claim their prayers do achieve real world results so whatever criteria you want to claim for the prayer to work, they are claiming they have met that criteria and do it with great enough frequency to keep them praying and recommending prayer.
"Therefore,"———nonresponsive.
I'm to old to chase chickens.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Oneness. Most trinity aren’t real trinity. They narrow it back to the one God and embedded within their argument they’re saying the same thing - God is Jesus, Jesus is God, Jesus the son of God, i in him, him in me, the Father and I are one, etc. Manifest meaning God revealing himself as human. Get a “trinitarian” to explain John 1 and see how trinity they are when they’re finished.
To clarify... Not looking to debate, just to see where your coming from, you don't believe the HS is a coequal 3rd person of the God head but rather believe that the HS is the spirit of God/Jesus? So that you know where I am coming from, I believe the HS is a NT word for the spirit of God "God is Spirit".
 
Thread starter #657
Not sure how Jesus could be God when God is supposed to be omniscient and Jesus isn’t.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
To clarify... Not looking to debate, just to see where your coming from, you don't believe the HS is a coequal 3rd person of the God head but rather believe that the HS is the spirit of God/Jesus? So that you know where I am coming from, I believe the HS is a NT word for the spirit of God "God is Spirit".
I’m with you on God is Spirit. I don’t believe there’s an individual / 3rd or 2nd person(s)

My belief or understanding and the way I approach it is “one” with different functions / manifestations.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, it’s the way I understand it when reading - Word was God, made flesh, Comforter which is the HS, I in he, he in me, etc.

Trinitarians that I’m familiar with might say 3rd person, but when getting in depth with them, they ultimately go back to oneness. One reason I don’t make a big deal over it.
 
I’m with you on God is Spirit. I don’t believe there’s an individual / 3rd or 2nd person(s)

My belief or understanding and the way I approach it is “one” with different functions / manifestations.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, it’s the way I understand it when reading - Word was God, made flesh, Comforter which is the HS, I in he, he in me, etc.

Trinitarians that I’m familiar with might say 3rd person, but when getting in depth with them, they ultimately go back to oneness. One reason I don’t make a big deal over it.
So instead of the eternal Son(Christ) becoming human, you see the one God becoming His human Son? Also known as "incarnational sonship."
 
I’m with you on God is Spirit. I don’t believe there’s an individual / 3rd or 2nd person(s)

My belief or understanding and the way I approach it is “one” with different functions / manifestations.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, it’s the way I understand it when reading - Word was God, made flesh, Comforter which is the HS, I in he, he in me, etc.

Trinitarians that I’m familiar with might say 3rd person, but when getting in depth with them, they ultimately go back to oneness. One reason I don’t make a big deal over it.
It is hard to grasp, I would agree it always does come back to Oneness and Unity more than the Trinity. Neither method explains it better than the other. I've never met a single person who can explain it, even though they believe it. I've about decided to "let the mystery be."
 
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