Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

I read the entire link carefully. It's clear to me that jewish thinking has evolved. First... they have completely by not having participated in the sacrifices, lost the concept. Early Jewish people would understand that the sacrifices were temporary, a constant reminder that it would one day be fulfilled. No mention of this. Second, the idea that the messiah would restore them to glory, putting people beneath them, ruling the world, crushing their opponents, does not surprise me. However this sounds so temporary. A narrow mindset that only sees a few generations at best. It's no surprise to me that a God of the universe would have bigger plans than this. Honestly, I saw very little in the link with much worth. Basically he did not come as a military leader. It reminded me of current day politics. Not much proof, just minor differences of interpretations, very minor. Seemingly a resistance. I was expecting a long list, but it was very little. Everyone is entitled to his belief, his interpretation, etc, but this is posed as substance with their break downs and line items .... that offer only one point that I could see?
I know that I posted a link in another thread which addressed the points you brought up more in depth, but Ill be darned if I can find it.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Most of what I am seeing in my search has to do with the godman Jesus not fitting, which I agree. I can't find any info in regards to my belief
 
Thread starter #86

Israel

Senior Member
"This is why the Jews don't/didn't believe Jesus is the Messiah."

The 12 were Jews. Joseph or Arimathea was a Jew. As far as any other followers who may have held any confession to Jesus being Messiah/Christ (the woman at the well being Samaritan) we don't know of many before the crucifixion that were plainly not Jews. The Centurion commended for his faith had some sort of recognition of Jesus' power and authority, but we do not know that he became a "follower"...despite that notable confession. The testimony is that many saw the power, and yet many called for His death.

If he were the same Centurion at the crucifixion "Truly this man was the Son of God" could be so...but it is not stated. The first being found speaking in Capernaum; but we do not know if he was posted also at Jerusalem. Regardless of whether one seeks to weed through the accounts for "non Jews", it's more plain that of those who followed, primarily Jews comprised that group. (And it was these of whom we have the later testimony of having spread the word)

And we also have the very plain matter...that even of those who confessed or are mentioned in the scriptures as His followers, not one was was not shocked/surprised at His resurrection. "In disbelief for joy" is how one translation describes their condition at His appearance among them. Absent is any testimony (whether one believes any of the record is recorded by eye witnesses)..."Yes, Jesus, I knew you'd come through death, just like you said...at least I always knew it".

So one has every witness of record without any testimony to their being persuaded (before) of the resurrection "I lay down my life and I take it up again" despite Jesus having said so. The followers themselves were surprised to say the least, according to the record.

So, if, or when, one talks of "Judaism" refuting Jesus as Messiah, one is only speaking of a set of codified religious beliefs making no allowance for such. (Which the world is able to receive...Judaism) It does not "speak for every individual Jew" anymore than I (and many of my brothers) accept "christianity" (which the world is able to receive...as christianity) as speaking for anything pertaining to the Christ of God in regards to our confession. Some are no more concerned about being expelled from the "churches" of christianity than those to whom Jesus spoke of having no fear of being cast out of the synagogue, as indeed many would be.

For even today there are Jews who believe Yehoshua is Mashiach. "Jews for Jesus" being no insignificant nor unheard of group (though Judaism by form might exclude them by saying "they are therefore not real Jews"...though they themselves might disagree). Who then...is a Jew?

Is/was Peter a Jew? Shaul of Tarsus? Yohanan (John?) Yacov/Jacob (James?)



Who speaks "for the Jew"? The gentile believer knows, as does the Jewish believer.

And He, the world can neither see nor receive. And each of His own are being changed by His speaking for them, no less. To what the world can neither make sense of, nor receive.
 
Thread starter #88
“And He, the world can neither see nor receive. And each of His own are being changed by His speaking for them, no less. To what the world can neither make sense of, nor receive.”

^That stands in stark contrast to the prophecied characteristics of the Jewish messiah. Yes not all Jews rejected him but the vast majority did.
 
"This is why the Jews don't/didn't believe Jesus is the Messiah."

The 12 were Jews. Joseph or Arimathea was a Jew. As far as any other followers who may have held any confession to Jesus being Messiah/Christ (the woman at the well being Samaritan) we don't know of many before the crucifixion that were plainly not Jews. The Centurion commended for his faith had some sort of recognition of Jesus' power and authority, but we do not know that he became a "follower"...despite that notable confession. The testimony is that many saw the power, and yet many called for His death.

If he were the same Centurion at the crucifixion "Truly this man was the Son of God" could be so...but it is not stated. The first being found speaking in Capernaum; but we do not know if he was posted also at Jerusalem. Regardless of whether one seeks to weed through the accounts for "non Jews", it's more plain that of those who followed, primarily Jews comprised that group. (And it was these of whom we have the later testimony of having spread the word)

And we also have the very plain matter...that even of those who confessed or are mentioned in the scriptures as His followers, not one was was not shocked/surprised at His resurrection. "In disbelief for joy" is how one translation describes their condition at His appearance among them. Absent is any testimony (whether one believes any of the record is recorded by eye witnesses)..."Yes, Jesus, I knew you'd come through death, just like you said...at least I always knew it".

So one has every witness of record without any testimony to their being persuaded (before) of the resurrection "I lay down my life and I take it up again" despite Jesus having said so. The followers themselves were surprised to say the least, according to the record.

So, if, or when, one talks of "Judaism" refuting Jesus as Messiah, one is only speaking of a set of codified religious beliefs making no allowance for such. (Which the world is able to receive...Judaism) It does not "speak for every individual Jew" anymore than I (and many of my brothers) accept "christianity" (which the world is able to receive...as christianity) as speaking for anything pertaining to the Christ of God in regards to our confession. Some are no more concerned about being expelled from the "churches" of christianity than those to whom Jesus spoke of having no fear of being cast out of the synagogue, as indeed many would be.

For even today there are Jews who believe Yehoshua is Mashiach. "Jews for Jesus" being no insignificant nor unheard of group (though Judaism by form might exclude them by saying "they are therefore not real Jews"...though they themselves might disagree). Who then...is a Jew?

Is/was Peter a Jew? Shaul of Tarsus? Yohanan (John?) Yacov/Jacob (James?)



Who speaks "for the Jew"? The gentile believer knows, as does the Jewish believer.

And He, the world can neither see nor receive. And each of His own are being changed by His speaking for them, no less. To what the world can neither make sense of, nor receive.
There always was/is and always will be splinter sects in every religion that are searching for something different, something new, something along their own personal beliefs and are willing to follow someone else who they think wilk get them there.

40,000 Different Denominations in Christianity is the perfect example for you to look at. Those 12 Jews, Joseph of Arimithea, Jews for Jesus etc etc etc are no different than the followers of Mormonism, David Koresh or any one of the 39,998 other denominations that all claim to be the Christians and the "right" version of Christianity.
 
"This is why the Jews don't/didn't believe Jesus is the Messiah."

The 12 were Jews. Joseph or Arimathea was a Jew. As far as any other followers who may have held any confession to Jesus being Messiah/Christ (the woman at the well being Samaritan) we don't know of many before the crucifixion that were plainly not Jews. The Centurion commended for his faith had some sort of recognition of Jesus' power and authority, but we do not know that he became a "follower"...despite that notable confession. The testimony is that many saw the power, and yet many called for His death.

If he were the same Centurion at the crucifixion "Truly this man was the Son of God" could be so...but it is not stated. The first being found speaking in Capernaum; but we do not know if he was posted also at Jerusalem. Regardless of whether one seeks to weed through the accounts for "non Jews", it's more plain that of those who followed, primarily Jews comprised that group. (And it was these of whom we have the later testimony of having spread the word)

And we also have the very plain matter...that even of those who confessed or are mentioned in the scriptures as His followers, not one was was not shocked/surprised at His resurrection. "In disbelief for joy" is how one translation describes their condition at His appearance among them. Absent is any testimony (whether one believes any of the record is recorded by eye witnesses)..."Yes, Jesus, I knew you'd come through death, just like you said...at least I always knew it".

So one has every witness of record without any testimony to their being persuaded (before) of the resurrection "I lay down my life and I take it up again" despite Jesus having said so. The followers themselves were surprised to say the least, according to the record.

So, if, or when, one talks of "Judaism" refuting Jesus as Messiah, one is only speaking of a set of codified religious beliefs making no allowance for such. (Which the world is able to receive...Judaism) It does not "speak for every individual Jew" anymore than I (and many of my brothers) accept "christianity" (which the world is able to receive...as christianity) as speaking for anything pertaining to the Christ of God in regards to our confession. Some are no more concerned about being expelled from the "churches" of christianity than those to whom Jesus spoke of having no fear of being cast out of the synagogue, as indeed many would be.

For even today there are Jews who believe Yehoshua is Mashiach. "Jews for Jesus" being no insignificant nor unheard of group (though Judaism by form might exclude them by saying "they are therefore not real Jews"...though they themselves might disagree). Who then...is a Jew?

Is/was Peter a Jew? Shaul of Tarsus? Yohanan (John?) Yacov/Jacob (James?)



Who speaks "for the Jew"? The gentile believer knows, as does the Jewish believer.

And He, the world can neither see nor receive. And each of His own are being changed by His speaking for them, no less. To what the world can neither make sense of, nor receive.
If you know your bible, lots of people were resurrected. Coming back from the dead was way more common a couple thousand years ago than it is today.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Jesus asked why god had forsaken him, It sounds like he had faith up until reality set in.
You can finish the quote Jesus was making by reading the 22nd Psalm, a prophesy of Christ's passion. If you read it all you will see that Jesus did not believe he was being forsaken but was showing great confidence in the Father in the midst of his suffering.
 
You can finish the quote Jesus was making by reading the 22nd Psalm, a prophesy of Christ's passion. If you read it all you will see that Jesus did not believe he was being forsaken but was showing great confidence in the Father in the midst of his suffering.
2 people. 2 different interpretations
 

Madman

Senior Member
This man makes a nice explanation within the premise that what is written in the bible is true.
http://churchofchristarticles.com/blog/administrator/jesus-forsaken/

I argue from the point that much of what is in the bible is embellished.
2 out of 4 gospels do not even mention Jesus saying it but saying something else entirely.
From the article; "My personal conviction and one which I believe is consistent with the Biblical teaching regarding the phrase is that the Father did turn His back on Jesus but for a moment. "

I trust the 1st century church more than a single voice from the 21st century.
 

Madman

Senior Member
If one reads the Church Fathers it is evident that they, those closest to the life of Christ, several who probably sat at his disciples feet, believed him to be God.

Polycarp
Justin the Martyr
Ignatius of Antioch
Irenaeus
Clement of Alexandria
Turtullian- Not a father but an apologist
Hippo of Rome
Origen
 
From the article; "My personal conviction and one which I believe is consistent with the Biblical teaching regarding the phrase is that the Father did turn His back on Jesus but for a moment. "

I trust the 1st century church more than a single voice from the 21st century.
But the authors of the 4 gospels heard things differently or not at all.
 
If one reads the Church Fathers it is evident that they, those closest to the life of Christ, several who probably sat at his disciples feet, believed him to be God.

Polycarp
Justin the Martyr
Ignatius of Antioch
Irenaeus
Clement of Alexandria
Turtullian- Not a father but an apologist
Hippo of Rome
Origen
You can find the names of others who believed just as strongly that the person they followed was divine.
Search for list of people who died in Waco with David Koresh
 

Madman

Senior Member
You can find the names of others who believed just as strongly that the person they followed was divine.
Search for list of people who died in Waco with David Koresh
I would like you to present those peoples thesis on those beliefs.
 
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