bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
The way the verses are worded leads me to believe that Jesus knew he was and always would be a Man
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Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?
- Thread starter atlashunter
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StriperAddict
Senior Member
Yes, being the God - man, he knew.
There are parts of the answers that are a mystery, for instance Jesus and Father are One yet He mentions and clearly shows His adoration of Father (worship).
Definitely the triune God is a tough subject for anyone's mind but the expressions of Father Son and Spirit each having a reality in creation and the saving of souls - that's well worth understanding for relationship.
Perhaps our 3 parts, body, soul and spirit are a good correlation to this. Or water, always the same in chemistry but different in liquid, gas or ice. We're not given all the answers because, as you said, we are not God or can claim knowing all things in scripture.
I doubt I'm helping, sorry, but what I see is a message not marred by our failures to know fully, but one that says the door is open to be fully known, enjoyed and loved by that same God man. The earlier verses you quoted bring out in the open His relational life.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
Bullet, is it not interesting that the God of the bible has said over and over that "the Lord your God is one". As if he knew this day was coming that One would be three in one. All this that you see... is in the bible. Interesting.... and the modern day Jesus has claimed to be god, just as the antichrist is said to do. Interesting
atlashunter
Senior Member
It’s hard to get from polytheism to monotheism without a good bit of affirmation.
atlashunter
Senior Member
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
You speak of polytheism often here in regards to this. so that i understand your point... can you clarify briefly? I assume your referring to jewish early days before the God of Israel revealed himself as the one true God. In other words, there were many so called gods believed in up to a point. But the real, one true God decided to make himself known, choosing a people to reveal himself to. The change about the time Moses starting leading them, they changed from many Gods to one true God, to "is god with us or not'. Is this what you are referring to, or something else?
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I have left out much here, mostly the 4 patriarch God, the God of abraham, issac, jacob... who am i forgetting? often God was referred to as the god of those 4 patriarchs. Implying that god was either hard to know how to explain him from other god beliefs or... that there were other beliefs of other gods?
atlashunter
Senior Member
That and more. The god you are calling the one true god originated as one of a number of Canaanite gods. Every group that has adopted an Abrahamic faith were originally polytheists. That’s Jews, Muslims, and Christians. The Christians didn’t quite make a clean break from it. At least not the ones who won out in the end.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
They will say that it makes perfect sense, that three is one, that the triune God is one God. so simple that Paul never needed to clarify to a extremely monotheistic audience. not once did he need to clarify this. instead, they needed clarification about food sacrificed to idols and such
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Trinity, all is one, one is all.
Until it isn't in order to make excuses to things which are clearly contrasting and contradictory information within the verses.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
If I am not mistaken the Jews believed that Yahweh was THEIR one true God because out of all the other God's, Yaweh CHOSE them and Made them to be His People.
Basically, Yaweh created the Jews to be HIS people. Adam and Eve, not the first people but the first Jewish people specifically made by the God that CHOSE to create a particular race to worship Him.
Israel
BANNED
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And this is just as much if not more, plainly bold:
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Though I cannot explain it, I believe it...both that Jesus asked such and that the answer is in fullness of all He asked.
"that they may be one, as we are."
Rather than try to explain what I do see, it would seem better to make clear what I do not see. Since the unity of the believers, the union of the believers is to be as that which is in the Father and Son:
"as we are"
I have never yet found the Spirit's prompting that I should assume or presume the identity of any other believer. I could be very wrong, and am sure at least in this that I am; I do not grasp the fullness of how such unity is understood.
I come back to what Paul had said in being crucified with Christ, nevertheless there remained in that life imparted his recognition of himself "nevertheless I live" but not without "yet not I".
Paul (at least to me) is not saying "I am now Jesus Christ"...but that life he now lives has caused a very severe (radical/rudimentary) change in the recognition of himself...if pressed I would say "it's still me, but not me" (at least as I previously understood what "me" meant...to me!)
Having been immersed (baptized) into the life of Jesus Christ, and now seeing it as his life his experience was all not his own, and as this is true, neither is his identity to himself any longer exclusively his own. In the surrender of his self (or the conquering if one prefer) to, and in, the truth of Christ, he does not find self recognition annihilated...but miraculously expanded. And of such magnitude he relates quite plainly in several places:
Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
In speaking of contending against the liar:
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
This recognition of his life, which is life indeed (and no longer his own, as such is until the Lord be revealed) now is touched (in his experience) by every other member. But this is not, and not to be "Paul's" alone. It is made his (Paul's) by revelation of truth of the unity of life that is in Jesus Christ, made gift to us in the name of the Father, through Him. Abiding in the Father's name to the very death of his own self (as He walked daily in the days of His flesh, and manifest to us in such plainness at Calvary) this same unity is now "ours".
And in such faithful obedience to abide there, and only there (in the Father's name, speaking and doing only according to that which was revealed to Him in that) He now is able to say to his own (which He received of, and as in, the Father)
"As the Father sent me so now send I you" (to abide in the name now given us, Jesus Christ)
This does not make me think (Israel who is presently assigned in the flesh in Guyton Georgia) "I am now Glenn in Tenn, or Gordon in Canada, or Welder, or Walt, or Roger, or Art,...or...Jesus Christ" (and forgive my lack of naming all others whom I see here contending for the faith of Christ) though I am as one with them as Jesus Christ is one with the Father.
The implications of this are far deeper than I yet understand and know. I would say, in fact...it is precisely of those implications, (you may call it the truth of such) and in those implications that I labor in understanding, often failing to recognize their fullness. For they also extend far beyond (in inclusion) those to which I may be presently inclined to dismiss as "outside"...but nevertheless have, from eternity...belonged to Jesus Christ...not yet expressing themselves in my perspective/understanding, (or worse to my satisfaction!) as such. Some "resistors" shall be shown as subject to the Word of God...as I may imagine myself to be, and even to a great exceeding. (One can easily think of Paul himself here...and Ananais' words)
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem: And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on your name.
But the Lord said to him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
This call of:
Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
has been from eternity. We no longer live in the small (infinitely small) tent of self, we have been summoned to the "living large" that is life indeed in Christ, made now plainly manifest in and through Christ, to the tearing open of his own tent...to include. To the gathering.
"The way you know" He said/says to His disciples.
This:
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
I speak to those who have had, or are now in the experience of being a widow or orphan...abandoned it seems by all once close or precious...in the experience of seeming...alone, or so completely not understood as to feel so. You are not...alone.
knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
You are tasting something that needs be tasted to help those who are yet fuming at their own finitude. Flailing against their hope in bitterness and seeming isolation. They are not alone, either.
And this is just as much if not more, plainly bold:
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Though I cannot explain it, I believe it...both that Jesus asked such and that the answer is in fullness of all He asked.
"that they may be one, as we are."
Rather than try to explain what I do see, it would seem better to make clear what I do not see. Since the unity of the believers, the union of the believers is to be as that which is in the Father and Son:
"as we are"
I have never yet found the Spirit's prompting that I should assume or presume the identity of any other believer. I could be very wrong, and am sure at least in this that I am; I do not grasp the fullness of how such unity is understood.
I come back to what Paul had said in being crucified with Christ, nevertheless there remained in that life imparted his recognition of himself "nevertheless I live" but not without "yet not I".
Paul (at least to me) is not saying "I am now Jesus Christ"...but that life he now lives has caused a very severe (radical/rudimentary) change in the recognition of himself...if pressed I would say "it's still me, but not me" (at least as I previously understood what "me" meant...to me!)
Having been immersed (baptized) into the life of Jesus Christ, and now seeing it as his life his experience was all not his own, and as this is true, neither is his identity to himself any longer exclusively his own. In the surrender of his self (or the conquering if one prefer) to, and in, the truth of Christ, he does not find self recognition annihilated...but miraculously expanded. And of such magnitude he relates quite plainly in several places:
Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
In speaking of contending against the liar:
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
This recognition of his life, which is life indeed (and no longer his own, as such is until the Lord be revealed) now is touched (in his experience) by every other member. But this is not, and not to be "Paul's" alone. It is made his (Paul's) by revelation of truth of the unity of life that is in Jesus Christ, made gift to us in the name of the Father, through Him. Abiding in the Father's name to the very death of his own self (as He walked daily in the days of His flesh, and manifest to us in such plainness at Calvary) this same unity is now "ours".
And in such faithful obedience to abide there, and only there (in the Father's name, speaking and doing only according to that which was revealed to Him in that) He now is able to say to his own (which He received of, and as in, the Father)
"As the Father sent me so now send I you" (to abide in the name now given us, Jesus Christ)
This does not make me think (Israel who is presently assigned in the flesh in Guyton Georgia) "I am now Glenn in Tenn, or Gordon in Canada, or Welder, or Walt, or Roger, or Art,...or...Jesus Christ" (and forgive my lack of naming all others whom I see here contending for the faith of Christ) though I am as one with them as Jesus Christ is one with the Father.
The implications of this are far deeper than I yet understand and know. I would say, in fact...it is precisely of those implications, (you may call it the truth of such) and in those implications that I labor in understanding, often failing to recognize their fullness. For they also extend far beyond (in inclusion) those to which I may be presently inclined to dismiss as "outside"...but nevertheless have, from eternity...belonged to Jesus Christ...not yet expressing themselves in my perspective/understanding, (or worse to my satisfaction!) as such. Some "resistors" shall be shown as subject to the Word of God...as I may imagine myself to be, and even to a great exceeding. (One can easily think of Paul himself here...and Ananais' words)
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem: And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on your name.
But the Lord said to him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
This call of:
Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
has been from eternity. We no longer live in the small (infinitely small) tent of self, we have been summoned to the "living large" that is life indeed in Christ, made now plainly manifest in and through Christ, to the tearing open of his own tent...to include. To the gathering.
"The way you know" He said/says to His disciples.
This:
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
I speak to those who have had, or are now in the experience of being a widow or orphan...abandoned it seems by all once close or precious...in the experience of seeming...alone, or so completely not understood as to feel so. You are not...alone.
knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
You are tasting something that needs be tasted to help those who are yet fuming at their own finitude. Flailing against their hope in bitterness and seeming isolation. They are not alone, either.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
You are to Paul as Paul was to Jesus and Jesus was to God.
You use "Us and We" to connect with them just as they used those words to connect themselves with what they thought was the next higher power.
Truth is, except for an inner desire to want to make such connections, no real attachment or inclusion exists.
In all cases "We" is actually a party of just one.
Truth is, you must be born again to see it.
atlashunter
Senior Member
They will say that it makes perfect sense, that three is one, that the triune God is one God. so simple that Paul never needed to clarify to a extremely monotheistic audience. not once did he need to clarify this. instead, they needed clarification about food sacrificed to idols and such
They say a lot of things make perfect sense until you start getting into the details. If God and Jesus are one and the same I would like to know how God is omniscient but Jesus isn't.
Israel
BANNED
Not exactly.
Any and every believer is to Jesus and the Father as Paul is to Jesus and the Father. And in the same way every believer is related (in that unity) to Paul (and all his brothers/sisters) as Jesus and the Father are one.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
When individuals are born again, do they see the Trinity, Oneness, or whatever version of God that they were indoctrinated to see?
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Right. We know. I have to be a team member in order to buy into it.
I know how it works....and that is why team members make excuses.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
There is no need for God to give Himself anything
Israel
BANNED
Yes, He has all, and the all is His.
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