bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
I will agree with that within the verses of the Bible.
If Jesus is God, why would he pray to himself, worship himself,and have to give himself anything?
He wouldn't.
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Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?
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If Jesus is God, why would he pray to himself, worship himself,and have to give himself anything?
He wouldn't.
Israel
BANNED
The unity that is God does not preclude identity of person.
Jesus prayed:
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Even my closest recognition of any brother (as carried in my heart) does not cause me to identify myself as himself. I may identify with him, even to the end of love, and still not presume myself to be him. (or herself)
"The Father is greater than I" Jesus said without contradiction...and without contradicting the knowing of His being the Son of His love. Giving honor, even all honor is what makes clear His separation from the world.
Listen...Jesus was in all ways obedient, even to the death of the cross.
When Pilate made demand and said:
Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Jesus did not deny whatever authority Pilate had but said instead:
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
That "therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." Is worth considering. There was sin in Pilate's presumption of power as (I believe) issuing from himself. Yet, the greater sin is found in those who declaring themselves to be the "knowing better" (of the true author of all authority) were willing and in practice handing one over to such a one when their resort (as self proclaimed, being Jews) was to be owed to God. It's always convenient to find "someone else" to do ones dirty work, yet the one who does the work...is actually held less blameworthy than the one who maneuvers to it. Seeking to keep one's hands...clean. Deceit is always worse than murder...because in part, it inevitably leads to it.
Oh how they hated to hear:
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
(Someone was seeing the hearts!)
The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?
(Liars...as would be shown)
How great a contrast as would be shown later by Gamaliel:
But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
In the next chapter we meet Stephen as prelude to meeting Saul in the next. (and following)
Now, there was a guy who went tooth and claw in opposition to the wisdom that was Gamaliel's...and it didn't matter at all how deeply he threw himself into his efforts of eradication.
Amen. What is His is not dependent upon their even knowing it. And yet there's a joy in seeing that as true. Thanks for the reminder.
Jesus prayed:
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Even my closest recognition of any brother (as carried in my heart) does not cause me to identify myself as himself. I may identify with him, even to the end of love, and still not presume myself to be him. (or herself)
"The Father is greater than I" Jesus said without contradiction...and without contradicting the knowing of His being the Son of His love. Giving honor, even all honor is what makes clear His separation from the world.
Listen...Jesus was in all ways obedient, even to the death of the cross.
When Pilate made demand and said:
Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Jesus did not deny whatever authority Pilate had but said instead:
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
That "therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." Is worth considering. There was sin in Pilate's presumption of power as (I believe) issuing from himself. Yet, the greater sin is found in those who declaring themselves to be the "knowing better" (of the true author of all authority) were willing and in practice handing one over to such a one when their resort (as self proclaimed, being Jews) was to be owed to God. It's always convenient to find "someone else" to do ones dirty work, yet the one who does the work...is actually held less blameworthy than the one who maneuvers to it. Seeking to keep one's hands...clean. Deceit is always worse than murder...because in part, it inevitably leads to it.
Oh how they hated to hear:
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
(Someone was seeing the hearts!)
The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?
(Liars...as would be shown)
How great a contrast as would be shown later by Gamaliel:
But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
In the next chapter we meet Stephen as prelude to meeting Saul in the next. (and following)
Now, there was a guy who went tooth and claw in opposition to the wisdom that was Gamaliel's...and it didn't matter at all how deeply he threw himself into his efforts of eradication.
Amen. What is His is not dependent upon their even knowing it. And yet there's a joy in seeing that as true. Thanks for the reminder.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Jesus was a God worshipping and Torah following Jew. No closer or farther to God than you are.
You worship a man who worshipped the god of the Hebrews.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
Modern day Christianity does not believe that Jesus had faith.So much is lost here. Faith that God would save him from decay, and more
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Jesus asked why god had forsaken him, It sounds like he had faith up until reality set in.
Which looking back into the Jewish requirements for the Messiah, since Jesus was a Torah following Jew if he thought he was the Messiah then he also thought he would not die. The reality that he was not the messiah set in very quickly once the crucifixion started.
atlashunter
Senior Member
You lost me.
Israel
BANNED
I'd be a fool to contend against that, or deny it. Those in Him through faith in him
(or better, the faith found in Him given to His own) brings those as near to God as He is.
The same relationship.
but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Again, I appreciate the reminder.
.
atlashunter
Senior Member
It’s interesting to read about the different conceptions of messiah. Even amongst Jews there are differing ideas.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
Modern day Christianity believes Jesus being God, raised himself, knew everything... which requires no faith. I believe Jesus was a man whom saw in the scriptures that the Messiah would not see decay, thinking it meant he would be saved from death, but later we see that it meant not from death but rather from decaying in a grave, that he was raised to life again.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
And even if that far fetched raised from dead story is true, Jesus would still be disqualified as being the Messiah.
He did not fulfill the qualifications that even he believed in. I think that he felt that he was on the right track until the Romans broke out the Hammers. Then the second guessing started.
atlashunter
Senior Member
According to the gospels he predicted his death and it was all part of the plan.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
I can forsee and predict the "future" too when I write the stories to suit after or decades after it "happened".
Book AAA, Chapter, Did Jesus Claim to be The Messiah, Verse #72:
For Atlas came to the conversation armed with the Gospel information full well knowing bullethead would have a great retort.
You just predicted my reply.
Last edited:
Spotlite
Resident Homesteader
In regards to Jesus, why???
Without weeding back through this thread or others; if I remember correctly, you accept the fact that Jesus was a real person that was preaching and others made a new religion out of him??
If that’s the case, what did Jesus have to gain from claiming to be the Messiah, or even predicting his crucifixion as a Messiah, Saviour, etc? Or, are you saying he was a preacher, didn’t predict / claim anything, and it was others that wrote the stories saying he did?
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
That right there.
Much was embellished
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I can understand your thoughts of "far fetched". Short version... what items come to mind that Jesus did not fulfill the Messiah check list. Or... i'll google it
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
If... we had not gotten the books recorded that now are the NT, the embellishments would have only gotten worse. I credit them for stopping the evolving. Yet, they are extremely embellished. But that's what happens with any such old heroic stories. Have you ever thought about Sampson, the story of how he killed so many pushing on the pillars of the temple? Supposedly he killed about the same or more than what was killed in the trade centers coming down. No way that this happened. Best it would have been would have been a few stories high. Or all those foxes he caught. Mercy, they were overrun, LOL. I once considered that someone, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, Paul... may have written their known version of things with the mindset that I had better record this before it goes any farther. Un inspired men presuming they know what was said between Pilot and Jesus, or what he said while hanging on the cross, or what he prayed in private..... It would have only gotten worse if it were not for the bible. Mercy, what a way of looking at things. Slippery slope indeed. Yet, God never asked me not to use my brain
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
I posted this earlier near the beginning of the thread, but this is what the Jews go by.
http://www.jewfaq.org/m/mashiach.htm
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I read the entire link carefully. It's clear to me that jewish thinking has evolved. First... they have completely by not having participated in the sacrifices, lost the concept. Early Jewish people would understand that the sacrifices were temporary, a constant reminder that it would one day be fulfilled. No mention of this. Second, the idea that the messiah would restore them to glory, putting people beneath them, ruling the world, crushing their opponents, does not surprise me. However this sounds so temporary. A narrow mindset that only sees a few generations at best. It's no surprise to me that a God of the universe would have bigger plans than this. Honestly, I saw very little in the link with much worth. Basically he did not come as a military leader. It reminded me of current day politics. Not much proof, just minor differences of interpretations, very minor. Seemingly a resistance. I was expecting a long list, but it was very little. Everyone is entitled to his belief, his interpretation, etc, but this is posed as substance with their break downs and line items .... that offer only one point that I could see?
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I should clarify... Jewish thought would never have the Messiah as God. Never. My belief has no conflict here. Modern day Christianity does however.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I suppose there are lots of reasons not listed in the link. Like not being Josephs son thus not of the line of David, yet there again, no conflict here for me because I do believe Jesus was Josephs literal son. So, I guess I am not looking at this from the same viewpoint
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