Disappointed in church cancellations

Israel

Senior Member
The question for Christians is whether they'll split hairs when other Christians exercise liberty differently from them. I've been more shamed, criticized, and falsely accused for my decision to attend church this week and assertions that many churches in rural America can be attended safely than for anything else since moving back to the South in 2013.
Brother...well, is there such a thing as the law of primacy?

Well if'n there ain't I"m gunna make one up

Means somethin's always gotta be at da top o' any list. (Semper Fi gotta good handle on dat)

But, actually, after I finished that first sentence I wrote I asked myself "ain't The Google smart enuff to know?"
Looky heah!

The law of primacy in persuasion, otherwise known as a primacy effect, as postulated by Frederick Hansen Lund in 1925 holds that the side of an issue presented first will have greater effectiveness in persuasion than the side presented subsequently.
Even though that doesn't support at all that thing I made up, it sure supports something else. "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"...and the subsequent (some days later) formation of clay-man. What came first is greater in persuasion (hey, this is perfect!) than the weakness exposed through the fall of the clay man. (hey this is subject to falling and failing!) And all clay man has to do is not come up with anything except find agreement in this truth..."I'm the weaker model!" (And if he tries to resist that truth...he only proves it!)

I'll leave all the spiritual permutations of conclusion to any (other) clay man that cares to consider that. And let him discover, if he can, the effects of that persuasion.


Regardless, I see you count it all joy. Still plugging away on Lake Lanier. Not caring I'm gonna guess...what they call you out there, even if they find you trolling.

Distance and present logistics prevent me from joining you, but I think about it. I don't know much about the crappie population there, but if there is one (The Google could probably be smart enuff again!) I sure like to think about reducing it some, or attempting to.

(Hey how far off from the OP does this guy wanna get?)

Well, to be honest...I don't find much of anything that is not related...somehow...(even in what may seem the most peculiar ways) to a central thesis, an immutable foundation, the very nexus of all things in creation, seen and unseen... the Glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There's just no escaping it. How everything is set to that...even if I were to try to avoid it (if it could be, or even could be attempted)...for by intentionally (as I might view my ability to intend) to avoid a thing...I only serve to make that thing more plain...by proving it yet the central thing (still! and always!)
...I am trying to avoid. The Glory of Jesus Christ, is simply inescapable. It can't be diminished, nor can it be added to. Nor can it be moved from centrality.

And, Clay man ends up being formed, actually, quite perfectly...to serving this.

Run from it, or to it (of little matter)...it remains central, around which all activity is ordained.


Happy fishing!

In every sense.
 
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Thread starter #102
Regardless, I see you count it all joy. Still plugging away on Lake Lanier. Not caring I'm gonna guess...what they call you out there, even if they find you trolling.
Everyone I've encountered on Lanier since COVID-19 became a thing has been very cool about it - fewer negative interactions than last year so far in spite of heavier traffic. But the Lord called me to have a fishing ministry, so I do not intend to stop. At the time, I was hoping to grow my ministry service within the church, but the Elders and my other closest advisers confirmed that the Lord was calling me to have a fishing ministry. And the COVID-19 thing has created increased demand for fishing trips as well as increased viewship on the related YouTube channel. Some of my detractors have criticized my online ministry efforts, thinking everyone should prefer face-to-face ministries. I've just tried to do what the Lord was telling me in the moment, and here we are. The fishing ministry reaches over 1000 people online for every guest who steps in the boat.

Late last year, my wife and I also felt the Lord was telling us to shift our worship ministry from mostly leading in-person public worship to mostly online. This was a difficult word to obey. "But Lord ..." We bristled for a few weeks and then obeyed. The Lord knew what 2020 would hold, while simply though everything would continue as in 2019.

Having done lots and lots of internet ministry (as well as teaching of math and physics), I am well acquainted with both the opportunities and limitations. Younger audiences are easily distracted and likely to have other windows open in their browsers. Messages need to be short and to the point. Nuanced two-way communication is much harder. Planting seeds and watering them is more straight forward than "closing the deal" and completing the harvest. The final steps of true repentance and change are almost always done in person.

I also recognize my personal limitations. Scripture says, "Let every matter be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses." Hard to do in internet ministry or fishing with someone. Most churches have folks who do a great job being the second and third witnesses and folks much more gifted than I am at "closing the deal." My online and fishing ministries may be moving forward, but I won't kid myself into believing that inviting a seeker to an online church service can be as effective as inviting them to "come and see" in person. Together with setting a good example for my sons, this is why I am so interested in finding nearby churches that are still welcoming attendance in-person. At first, I thought that "smaller gatherings" might provide a path forward. But I discovered a lot of those have been cancelled also.
 
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Brother...well, is there such a thing as the law of primacy?

Well if'n there ain't I"m gunna make one up

Means somethin's always gotta be at da top o' any list. (Semper Fi gotta good handle on dat)

But, actually, after I finished that first sentence I wrote I asked myself "ain't The Google smart enuff to know?"
Looky heah!



Even though that doesn't support at all that thing I made up, it sure supports something else. "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"...and the subsequent (some days later) formation of clay-man. What came first is greater in persuasion (hey, this is perfect!) than the weakness exposed through the fall of the clay man. (hey this is subject to falling and failing!) And all clay man has to do is not come up with anything except find agreement in this truth..."I'm the weaker model!" (And if he tries to resist that truth...he only proves it!)

I'll leave all the spiritual permutations of conclusion to any (other) clay man that cares to consider that. And let him discover, if he can, the effects of that persuasion.


Regardless, I see you count it all joy. Still plugging away on Lake Lanier. Not caring I'm gonna guess...what they call you out there, even if they find you trolling.

Distance and present logistics prevent me from joining you, but I think about it. I don't know much about the crappie population there, but if there is one (The Google could probably be smart enuff again!) I sure like to think about reducing it some, or attempting to.

(Hey how far off from the OP does this guy wanna get?)

Well, to be honest...I don't find much of anything that is not related...somehow...(even in what may seem the most peculiar ways) to a central thesis, an immutable foundation, the very nexus of all things in creation, seen and unseen... the Glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There's just no escaping it. How everything is set to that...even if I were to try to avoid it (if it could be, or even could be attempted)...for by intentionally (as I might view my ability to intend) to avoid a thing...I only serve to make that thing more plain...by proving it yet the central thing (still! and always!)
...I am trying to avoid. The Glory of Jesus Christ, is simply inescapable. It can't be diminished, nor can it be added to. Nor can it be moved from centrality.

And, Clay man ends up being formed, actually, quite perfectly...to serving this.

Run from it, or to it (of little matter)...it remains central, around which all activity is ordained.


Happy fishing!

In every sense.
Having been accused of being — perhaps identified as — one who works out too many details, I have found that philosophical Foundationalism aptly describes the system that you speak of. It sometimes helps to identify such a thing so as to improve its application. Having identified it, it can then be reduced back to an appropriate simple statement that entails the details. For me it has become:
theologically—In the beginning God.
philosophically—It's all about God.
Intuitively, I think they can be combined; maybe someday.
Maybe "In the beginning God, therefore, It's all about God".

Nah, surely that's too easy.

Simplest description of Foundationalism I've seen.
https://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_foundationalism.html
 
Thread starter #105
It's encouraging to see that Gov. Kemp has left a way for churches of all sizes to stay open, as long as specific social distancing guidelines are met.

This is encouraging given some of the things I am seeing in exclusively online presentations, including sermon re-runs, pre-recorded messages, insertions of commercials both by internet providers and ministries themselves, a shift from live music to canned music, an increased focus in asking for money, interruptions in connectivity, and content sensoring from streaming services such as YouTube and Facebook.

I understand not every church can maintain live music for an online service, but many of the larger churches can. Further, I fail to see any reason why any church cannot maintain honest attempts at a live preaching in an online format. Most weeks, I search out and watch 5-10 hours of pre-recorded video content. Is new, live content too much to ask for on Sunday mornings and Wed nights?
 

j_seph

Senior Member
It's encouraging to see that Gov. Kemp has left a way for churches of all sizes to stay open, as long as specific social distancing guidelines are met.

This is encouraging given some of the things I am seeing in exclusively online presentations, including sermon re-runs, pre-recorded messages, insertions of commercials both by internet providers and ministries themselves, a shift from live music to canned music, an increased focus in asking for money, interruptions in connectivity, and content sensoring from streaming services such as YouTube and Facebook.

I understand not every church can maintain live music for an online service, but many of the larger churches can. Further, I fail to see any reason why any church cannot maintain honest attempts at a live preaching in an online format. Most weeks, I search out and watch 5-10 hours of pre-recorded video content. Is new, live content too much to ask for on Sunday mornings and Wed nights?
I posted these elsewhere as well but if you are interested

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Thread starter #107
I posted these elsewhere as well but if you are interested

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" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Saw those in the other thread. The display would be cleaner if you just paste in the link (URL only) as a link without pasting in all the embed code. I do this by selecting "Copy video url" rather than "Copy embed code" when I right click on the video in Youtube. Only the video will be displayed in GON without the extra code in your posts. It will look like this:

 

Israel

Senior Member
Since from the beginning of the OP I have believed LDB more concerned with government overreach than with many of the matters of which he has been accused, it was interesting to read this:

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2020/mar/25/nevada-governor-bars-malaria-drugs-for-coronavirus/

It is true this particular point appears to have little to do with seeking any special impact upon the church. It is a broad ban. And as such some might easily deride and say "I see no boogeyman hiding behind this coming for the church".

Nevertheless, in all matters, regardless of whether one sees threat (immediate or more far off) the issue of authority is something every believer must come to consider. And you would be wise to ask "by what authority do I, can I (Israel) even say that?"

Because everywhere we go, in every situation, disposition, and even thought of our mind...we are going to touch authority. Authorship, origins, and their power. And I cannot speak except as a fool to what has not yet touched the truth of this:

"All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me" Jesus the Messiah. The Christ. The Lord.

The Lord's governing authority is absolute, unassailable, eternal, unchanged and unchanging. It is in all unreliant and independent of our agreement, independent of our making, and any recognition of it is not given to us as appeal for support. It is all and only given as gift, and will never be less (and can certainly never be more!). To be given to see this Ruling Head is our salvation. To acknowledge His complete Sovereignty as Lord is our confession. To come to know Him our only true joy and pleasure.

There is no hypocrisy in Him, no presumption found in Him, no attempt at "grasping at" or overreach revealed in Him. And because He is pure in consistency of word and deed and holding absolute power, all else is judged through Him and by Him. He is the true that both exposes and reduces the false to no thing. Unshakable, His drawing near exposes all that can be...to shaking.

We too are encouraged in and through Him to unshakable-ness and His steadfastness, even if, for whatever time appointed, it is allowed to appear as obstinacy...till that lesson be complete. Here the apostle's words ring so very clear and true

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

Broken rebels need no explanation. How that the Lord is supremely patient with His own, who while even at times confessing Him, may be found stiff necked, resistant, and like a bucking horse taking pride while yet boasting of their rider. This is marvelous. And His marvelous work. To stay on. To endure. To abide. Not in spite, but despite.

We may love the notion of compliance, of submission, but when the Reigning One takes the reins we may discover a very clear difference between notions and exercise, that prior have never had a more clear distinction.

"If you know these things, happy are you if you do them"

Whatever lag we may discover between our knowing and our doing is where we come to learn of abounding grace and its all sufficiency. And how, by such grace salvation is made known to us. And how, it is only such grace revealed; that bringing to any form of consistency in what we both say, and, if so found made able to do...is all of owing to that grace. Again, broken rebels, and those in the breakers, need no explanation. We can never be smart enough, but only found too smart; even as our appearance to ourselves may be "too willing" till we are broken...and made just...willing.

Pressures, stressors, trials come to reveal. Things once in support are taken away, extraneous things that may hinder the recognition of nature, of essence, are removed. Distilling takes place...to a purity. What may have been once confused by appurtenances is suddenly stripped. Will the preacher still "love what he preaches" when he is stripped of hearers? Or, was it only love of preaching? (Every other bar stool in every pub I have ever frequented holds no less) Will he preach...precisely what may lead to his being deprived...of hearers? God knows.

Is Christ being preached...or are men only hearing the last meal of chicken and dumplings?

None of us need be contrarian. There is ample in the gospel for us to discover opposition, no longer mistaking our being opposed to any confusing. Being obnoxious can land a disciple in jail for a season and a lesson. But so can (and I am more convinced) preaching the gospel...and the two men might meet there. And both may be in chains for the sake of the Lord's gospel, with the one being taught...by the one sent in to love the jailer. Christ having apprehended both. Made prisoners of them. Having taken captive...the captive.

Pressures are revealing. Men who once took the stage in proud profession of desire to serve, mattering not whether it be politicians or preachers...may be shown as merely loving and coveting the power of that stage. With never intent as they once sometimes piously professed. As matters now (or whenever) in their sight begin to eclipse what they once considered their source of power...each will be tempted...to overreach...some no doubt succumbing, others patiently learning to abide "in their lane"...even if, and when, that seems diminishing.

Our Lord Jesus Christ had all "at hand" ready, and able to be willingly provided of His Father...to lift Himself up and out of all that was prepared to reveal His weakness. Even to such brokenness that the Son of God would even cry out "Eloi, Eloi lama sabacthani" He refused...even in all lawfullness...to go beyond His assigning.

We may ask...what joy was His to see that made Him able to so endure?

For the joy set before Him...

For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

We, of all, should not be shocked to discover men scrambling...even to overreach of what they profess (we are a nation of LAWS! Is often proudly repeated), mistaking themselves as their own source of authority. (Don't you know I have power to kill you or let you go?)

Shaking and stripping away...are always taking place, and it is only grace that is shown toward what is being preserved that thinks this is "only sometimes happening". No, it is only sometimes...to be made more clear as always happening. But if we learn...let us not let go of this lesson, there is only one government unshaken, and unshakable. And its growth in us is always accompanied by our own knowing of shaking, how that what has lain behind we have falsely projected as what lies ahead, seeking security in that.

We are always men in the breakers, sent to touch a shore (for as long as God wills) that proudly boasts to the sea "I determine where you end".

I write in fear of the Lord to all that longs for what is being called "a return to normal" knowing I must be sifted no less in it. The very best of the world's normal is not what has been prepared for us, no matter how much now we may be found longing in return to it. Our normal...is what is always new to us, and this in no way despises the suffering of any seeking to endure through. And as such may even appear most grievous.

Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

If any of us be found being shaken...let us become weak toward one another, and not the one who has vain provocation of ministering despair through this trial:

Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

As each lays hold of that which we are called to lay hold, an unshakable Kingdom...we will find comfort both for ourselves...and life and health for ministry to one another as God allows. We can take lesson as need be in even what men see as hopeless terror...that touching one, another ten may be touched and so on.

We minister of spirit, unless we do not, and of such there is no knowing of bounds...near, or far. Prevailing both over time...and distance.
 
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I ask you to forgive me when I get stupid in my choice of words.
As to the quality there's nothing to forgive. The quantity is where I have to reeeeeally humble myself, fast, and ask the Lord for help. ::ke:
The good news is I do credit you with my 70 lb weight loss.
 
Thread starter #111
Since from the beginning of the OP I have believed LDB more concerned with government overreach than with many of the matters of which he has been accused ...

It is true this particular point appears to have little to do with seeking any special impact upon the church. It is a broad ban. And as such some might easily deride and say "I see no boogeyman hiding behind this coming for the church".
I've often heard churches referred to hospitals for the spiritually sick. Walmart stays open, because food is a basic need. Medical care facilities likewise remain open. Have we accepted the assertion that no one really "needs" to go to church? Is church really a "social gathering"? I've always viewed it primarily about the vertical relationship with God the Father.

My primary concern is carrying out the Great Commission. Let's face it, the devil is better at online discipleship than the church. Pornhub will grow much more than the church during the COVID-19 closures. The younger generation tend to lose focus much more quickly with online content. Depending on how long the closures last, many local churches may not re-open, and those that do may not be able to keep their doors open for long.

Most church goers are beginning to build habits of online attendance. I expect a significant portion will not return to regular in-person attendance once church doors re-open. If online attendance is OK during COVID-19, how are church leaders going to avoid seeming hypocritical if they assert in-person attendance is "better" afterward? Church leaders who previously asserted that in-person attendance in a "real church" was is the better way to fulfill Hebrews 11:25 are already looking hypocritical in some eyes if they were quick to close their churches.

And what of tithing and giving? Recessions almost always reduce giving in the American church. It is also unclear what effect the expected long-term reduction in personal attendance may have, but I doubt it will be positive.

I do have some concern that the precedent of government closures of the church (and subsequent implication that churches need government permission to re-open) may be abused in the future to restrict gatherings of Christians. Efforts to carry out the Great Commission should not need government permission.
 
I've often heard churches referred to hospitals for the spiritually sick. Walmart stays open, because food is a basic need. Medical care facilities likewise remain open. Have we accepted the assertion that no one really "needs" to go to church? Is church really a "social gathering"? I've always viewed it primarily about the vertical relationship with God the Father.

My primary concern is carrying out the Great Commission. Let's face it, the devil is better at online discipleship than the church. Pornhub will grow much more than the church during the COVID-19 closures. The younger generation tend to lose focus much more quickly with online content. Depending on how long the closures last, many local churches may not re-open, and those that do may not be able to keep their doors open for long.

Most church goers are beginning to build habits of online attendance. I expect a significant portion will not return to regular in-person attendance once church doors re-open. If online attendance is OK during COVID-19, how are church leaders going to avoid seeming hypocritical if they assert in-person attendance is "better" afterward? Church leaders who previously asserted that in-person attendance in a "real church" was is the better way to fulfill Hebrews 11:25 are already looking hypocritical in some eyes if they were quick to close their churches.

And what of tithing and giving? Recessions almost always reduce giving in the American church. It is also unclear what effect the expected long-term reduction in personal attendance may have, but I doubt it will be positive.

I do have some concern that the precedent of government closures of the church (and subsequent implication that churches need government permission to re-open) may be abused in the future to restrict gatherings of Christians. Efforts to carry out the Great Commission should not need government permission.
Right now in Albany, there are 12 people dead, 173 confirmed cases, 35 people hospitalized, and 900 people awaiting tests results — and 90 of those are in the hospital. Because ONE person with COVID went to a funeral. And you want to keep gathering? That's crazy. I'm sure those folks who are dead and struggling for their lives right now could probably not care less about your worries of decreased church attendance post-corona. People are dying, and suffering. You don't seem to care as long as you can preach to them. And keep talking this foolishness about "government discrimination against Christians." I don't really understand how you get to that mindset. Most people value their lives and the lives of their loved ones more than a church service. And you think that's wrong?

This will be over at some point, and you can go back to what you were doing. But putting your whole community at risk of sickness and death because of your virtue signalling is not cool.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I've often heard churches referred to hospitals for the spiritually sick. Walmart stays open, because food is a basic need. Medical care facilities likewise remain open. Have we accepted the assertion that no one really "needs" to go to church? Is church really a "social gathering"? I've always viewed it primarily about the vertical relationship with God the Father.

My primary concern is carrying out the Great Commission. Let's face it, the devil is better at online discipleship than the church. Pornhub will grow much more than the church during the COVID-19 closures. The younger generation tend to lose focus much more quickly with online content. Depending on how long the closures last, many local churches may not re-open, and those that do may not be able to keep their doors open for long.

Most church goers are beginning to build habits of online attendance. I expect a significant portion will not return to regular in-person attendance once church doors re-open. If online attendance is OK during COVID-19, how are church leaders going to avoid seeming hypocritical if they assert in-person attendance is "better" afterward? Church leaders who previously asserted that in-person attendance in a "real church" was is the better way to fulfill Hebrews 11:25 are already looking hypocritical in some eyes if they were quick to close their churches.

And what of tithing and giving? Recessions almost always reduce giving in the American church. It is also unclear what effect the expected long-term reduction in personal attendance may have, but I doubt it will be positive.

I do have some concern that the precedent of government closures of the church (and subsequent implication that churches need government permission to re-open) may be abused in the future to restrict gatherings of Christians. Efforts to carry out the Great Commission should not need government permission.
Quote: I've often heard churches referred to hospitals for the spiritually sick. Unquote.

I'm a firm believer in that we say what we believe and mean what we believe. And especially from freudian slips where deep inside our wakeful pretensions we sleep truth and in unintentional moments of wakefulness we will now and then heave up the truth.

The church as an asylum run by the patients is perhaps a good defense for the assembly in a court of law, but I don't think this is what the fathers and mothers of the church had in mind. It also begs other fundamental questions which personally I have. Why would a church who ministers to invalids claim that itself was invalid? for example. Does not a church that ministers to people who like to play as a way of life and becomes a player to minister, risk the notion that church itself is playing church and is missing where the serious work of commissions would be seriously directed ?
 
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j_seph

Senior Member
Do you put a raincoat on or carry an umbrella when you go outside and it is pouring rain? When your tires wear down to slicks, do you go get more tires or just keep driving on them in faith that they will go another 20,000 miles? The good Lord gave us means and a brain to use for a reason. It really disturbs me when a believer and a non-believer both throws out that just because you follow Jesus do you not trust him to keep you safe. I have yet to go see someone stand in the middle of active train tracks 24 hours to prove they would not get hit. Use the brain and the means God has provided through the guidence of the Holy Spirit. There have probably been more people in the last 2 weeks heard Gods words than there have been in a long time because of this. How many folks who have layed down and gave up have now found themselves turning back to the Father because of this?

Proverbs 3:21-26
21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:
 

j_seph

Senior Member
The 2 videos I post have both been watched over 600 times. Normally that preached word by those 2 would only go out to approx. 50 to 75 people.
 
Efforts to carry out the Great Commission should not need government permission.
They don't and never have. The problem isn't whether or not His Will will be done. It most certainly will. The problem most of us have is that we want be toe deep into The Great Commission for appearances and advertise to anyone who has an ear that we are neck deep, but when some little ripple comes along and threatens our creature comforts or hobbies we take our toe out and scream like we are being crucified. Yet those who are literally being killed for their beliefs like the 11 who were beheaded on Christmas Day in Nigeria, or Wang Yi a pastor in China who just got 9 years in prison, Pastor Han Chung-Ryeol who was stabbed to death, or Deacon Jang (15 years), wellllllll,.... we don't talk about them. Wonder why?

Oh, and btw, non of those had the governments permission to obey God's calling. I guess they figured they didn't need it. Seems it all comes down to one's priorities.
 
Right now in Albany, there are 12 people dead, 173 confirmed cases, 35 people hospitalized, and 900 people awaiting tests results — and 90 of those are in the hospital. Because ONE person with COVID went to a funeral. And you want to keep gathering? That's crazy. I'm sure those folks who are dead and struggling for their lives right now could probably not care less about your worries of decreased church attendance post-corona. People are dying, and suffering. You don't seem to care as long as you can preach to them. And keep talking this foolishness about "government discrimination against Christians." I don't really understand how you get to that mindset. Most people value their lives and the lives of their loved ones more than a church service. And you think that's wrong?

This will be over at some point, and you can go back to what you were doing. But putting your whole community at risk of sickness and death because of your virtue signalling is not cool.
Just a note. South Korea originally contained their first 30 cases which was awesome. Probably no country in the world could have done a better job. Problem was there was a '31' out there that no one knew about. 31 ended up being a super transmitter and that 1 person wound up infecting thousands and it went from there.
 
Just a note. South Korea originally contained their first 30 cases which was awesome. Probably no country in the world could have done a better job. Problem was there was a '31' out there that no one knew about. 31 ended up being a super transmitter and that 1 person wound up infecting thousands and it went from there.
1 is all it takes. And he/she may be on the pew beside you.
 
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