Do the unsaved REALLY go to a fiery furnace forever? No.

[WaltL1]

Beyond salvation and a belief in Jesus, I'm not sure what matters anymore. I was more at peace before I started gaining knowledge. Free will, Election, predestination, fate, Trinitarian, Oneness, Unity, everlasting death, everlasting life, eternal spirits, becoming like God, pre-existing children of God, image of God as flesh, physical or spiritual resurrections, Heaven on earth, God's Kingdom now or future, and the 2nd coming not being in the future is a whole lot of knowledge.
I'm still trying to figure out how much science God uses within his creation.

When you consider the 40,000+ denominations of Christianity, you certainly arent alone.
Although your beliefs hold that God isnt the author of confusion, man certainly has made a mess of it.
Having been in your shoes, my personal solution was to reject anything and everything that man has put his hands on.
Hence my Agnosticism.

 

[Artfuldodger]

When you consider the 40,000+ denominations of Christianity, you certainly arent alone.
Although your beliefs hold that God isnt the author of confusion, man certainly has made a mess of it.
Having been in your shoes, my personal solution was to reject anything and everything that man has put his hands on.
Hence my Agnosticism.

Well I would like to not believe anything man has placed his hands on and still remain a Christian. That's kinda impossible as man wrote down the Word of God. Then the Church(man) wrote it down again the way he wanted in interpreted. Wading through the "man" interpretations is a challenge.
Then we have Jesus our Savior who happens to be a man.
I put my trust in that "Man." I also put some trust in myself who happens to be a man.
A man who is guided along his path to the Light by the same Spirit as every other Christian man.
I agree that in finding the correct knowledge is a challenge. There are just too many variation even within Christianity.
Who am I, a man, to say Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet?

 

[WaltL1]

Well I would like to not believe anything man has placed his hands on and still remain a Christian. That's kinda impossible as man wrote down the Word of God. Then the Church(man) wrote it down again the way he wanted in interpreted. Wading through the "man" interpretations is a challenge.
Then we have Jesus our Savior who happens to be a man.
I put my trust in that "Man." I also put some trust in myself who happens to be a man.
A man who is guided along his path to the Light by the same Spirit as every other Christian man.
I agree that in finding the correct knowledge is a challenge. There are just too many variation even within Christianity.
Who am I, a man, to say Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet?

Sure and Im definitely not suggesting my solution should be your solution.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Sure and Im definitely not suggesting my solution should be your solution.

I know where your coming from and respect your beliefs. We've all got to walk that lonesome valley for ourselves.
I certainly wouldn't want my fellow Christians to follow my beliefs on the Trinity, Oneness, or Unity of Christ. Just use me to test the spirits and decide for oneself.

 

[BAR308]

Uhh?.... death?


What about this?:

Matt.25:46
" And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Do you understand the difference between these two concepts?

death IS everlasting punishMENT... eternal torments would be everlasting punishING... theres a difference. and everlasting does not always mean FOREVER... study the words 'everlasting', 'eternal', 'forever'... they dont always mean forever or eternal.

 

[gordon 2]

When you consider the 40,000+ denominations of Christianity, you certainly arent alone.
Although your beliefs hold that God isnt the author of confusion, man certainly has made a mess of it.
Having been in your shoes, my personal solution was to reject anything and everything that man has put his hands on.
Hence my Agnosticism.

(I don't what to jump in this like I'm out of the blue and butting in, especially that I think your words are addressed to Art in a very honest, strait forward way: Yet your words hit a note, a cord, an automatic memory in me.)

I have it from medical doctors at a hospital where I once worked that people ( patients) in general are said compliant if they do 70% of what doctor ordered or advised. People are always confused at least 30%, I infer, even when the might of the medical profession and hospital resources are brought to bare in order that they might max. their well being!

So people it is not surprising that "scratch your head in disbelief" is always present in our lives and the lives of others; That it is the case in spirituality should not be the case to mistrust the hand of man-- no more than the will of a loving mother or a surgeon doing his best to help you.

Maybe, kinda...?

As far as who's got it right, I do. Trust me. In the 40,000 denominations I got the right one. Thrust me. And and I had an uncle, he was a logger, who once told me when I was a young man, "It does not matter how much money you make, it matters what you do with it." I think instead of "money ", "christian denomination" might fit in his saying ... maybe and especially in a North American context...

So it should not stop a bright guy from picking a number, any number, in the spawn of the Reformers or one of the many rites of Catholics.

 

[welderguy]

death IS everlasting punishMENT... eternal torments would be everlasting punishING... theres a difference. and everlasting does not always mean FOREVER... study the words 'everlasting', 'eternal', 'forever'... they dont always mean forever or eternal.

Even so,come quickly Lord.

 

[WaltL1]

(I don't what to jump in this like I'm out of the blue and butting in, especially that I think your words are addressed to Art in a very honest, strait forward way: Yet your words hit a note, a cord, an automatic memory in me.)

I have it from medical doctors at a hospital where I once worked that people ( patients) in general are said compliant if they do 70% of what doctor ordered or advised. People are always confused at least 30%, I infer, even when the might of the medical profession and hospital resources are brought to bare in order that they might max. their well being!

So people it is not surprising that "scratch your head in disbelief" is always present in our lives and the lives of others; That it is the case in spirituality should not be the case to mistrust the hand of man-- no more than the will of a loving mother or a surgeon doing his best to help you.

Maybe, kinda...?

As far as who's got it right, I do. Trust me. In the 40,000 denominations I got the right one. Thrust me. And and I had an uncle, he was a logger, who once told me when I was a young man, "It does not matter how much money you make, it matters what you do with it." I think instead of "money ", "christian denomination" might fit in his saying ... maybe and especially in a North American context...

So it should not stop a bright guy from picking a number, any number, in the spawn of the Reformers or one of the many rites of Catholics.

I don't what to jump in this like I'm out of the blue and butting in,

If nobody ever jumped in all we would hear is crickets

That it is the case in spirituality should not be the case to mistrust the hand of man-- no more than the will of a loving mother or a surgeon doing his best to help you.

In an effort to keep this short I'll say -
Although the mother and the doctor may have the best of intentions, truly care and want nothing but the best, that doesnt coorelate to the accuracy of what they know/believe. If what they were taught was polluted they will lovingly and caringly pass on the polluted message.
I personally believe that if there is a god/God the minute man put his hands on it from the very beginning thats when the pollution started.
I base that on how and by who the Bible was created all the way up to the present day.

As far as who's got it right, I do. Trust me. In the 40,000 denominations I got the right one. Thrust me.

On a serious note though, the 40,000 demoniantions is an example of the pollution. The typical response to that is it doesnt really matter what denomination as long as you believe in the "big picture".
Of course that assumes that the "big picture" itself isnt polluted.

 

[hobbs27]

On a serious note though, the 40,000 demoniantions is an example of the pollution. The typical response to that is it doesnt really matter what denomination as long as you believe in the "big picture".
Of course that assumes that the "big picture" itself isnt polluted.

I tend to look at it as Gods way of reaching all cultures and personalities. Some of those 40k are not denominations but cults, such as the JW organization.
The big picture really is the most important. John 3:16

 

[WaltL1]

I tend to look at it as Gods way of reaching all cultures and personalities. Some of those 40k are not denominations but cults, such as the JW organization.
The big picture really is the most important. John 3:16

I look at it a little differently.
Different denominations are generally a result of different views ie confusion or difference of opinion about what is true.
Some of those differences are pretty major -
Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and you will be saved.
If you werent prechosen before the creation of the world you arent saved regardless of what you believe about Jesus being your Lord and Savior.
God, who is NOT the author of confusion would create this confusion to reach people?

Some of those 40k are not denominations but cults, such as the JW organization.

That whole cult thing isnt as cut and dry as it seems.
cult -
1. a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object

Now you can try to narrow cult down to maybe include "out of the norm".
Which would make Chrsitianity originally a cult.
Slippery slope that cult thing.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I tend to look at it as Gods way of reaching all cultures and personalities. Some of those 40k are not denominations but cults, such as the JW organization.
The big picture really is the most important. John 3:16

It's a tiny bit ironic that you are using the various denominations as a way of God reaching the masses but then say the JW's are a cult.
We have some that say God is One, others say he is a Trinity. We have some that say God incarnate as man while others say the 1/3 of the Godhead Christ came to the earth as Jesus. Yet others say he is the Son of God and a virgin human Mother. Some say he is the adopted firstborn Son of God and not a virgin Mother. Some say the blessed virgin Mother Mary was pure and without sin. That her birth was immaculate.
Now with all of that, why is Jesus being in the form of an angel so weird?

Some say God was once a man. Some say we came from Heaven and came to the earth to redeem ourselves. That we were once angels and can eventually become gods.
Some say that Christ will return one day and others say he already has. Some say he11 is death by flames and others say it is everlasting punishment.
Some say that we must have freewill in order to decide our own fate and salvation. Others say if we had anything to do with it then God isn't God. That just believing you had anything to do with it will surrender your salvation.
Some say salvation is all from God's grace. Other say we must prove our salvation by works. That if we don't prove ourselves then we can lose our salvation or better yet, we never had it.

All of this just to appease the masses? Lordship Salvation, free grace salvation, easy believism mega-churches, fire and brimstone fundamental Evangelical Churches?
Churches with music and churches without, Churches with electricity and Churches without, Churches with Holy water and churches without, black Churches, white Churches, Mexican churches, tabernacles, temples, & houses of worship.
Oh, I almost forgot Churches with Baptistry pools and Churches without.
All that and we're all Christian. Why?
We all believe Jesus died for our sins.

 

[hobbs27]

It's a tiny bit ironic that you are using the various denominations as a way of God reaching the masses but then say the JW's are a cult.
We have some that say God is One, others say he is a Trinity. We have some that say God incarnate as man while others say the 1/3 of the Godhead Christ came to the earth as Jesus. Yet others say he is the Son of God and a virgin human Mother. Some say he is the adopted firstborn Son of God and not a virgin Mother. Some say the blessed virgin Mother Mary was pure and without sin. That her birth was immaculate.
Now with all of that, why is Jesus being in the form of an angel so weird?

Some say God was once a man. Some say we came from Heaven and came to the earth to redeem ourselves. That we were once angels and can eventually become gods.
Some say that Christ will return one day and others say he already has. Some say he11 is death by flames and others say it is everlasting punishment.
Some say that we must have freewill in order to decide our own fate and salvation. Others say if we had anything to do with it then God isn't God. That just believing you had anything to do with it will surrender your salvation.
Some say salvation is all from God's grace. Other say we must prove our salvation by works. That if we don't prove ourselves then we can lose our salvation or better yet, we never had it.

All of this just to appease the masses? Lordship Salvation, free grace salvation, easy believism mega-churches, fire and brimstone fundamental Evangelical Churches?
Churches with music and churches without, Churches with electricity and Churches without, Churches with Holy water and churches without, black Churches, white Churches, Mexican churches, tabernacles, temples, & houses of worship.
Oh, I almost forgot Churches with Baptistry pools and Churches without.
All that and we're all Christian. Why?
We all believe Jesus died for our sins.

The JW organization is a cult, pure and simple, not just in their beliefs but in the way the organization operates to control it's members. These people are the most brainwashed group I have seen, in that they are not even allowed to believe differently that what the organization says for them to. They have no freedom and are told to work to get more members, so they may have eternal life on earth, in the new coming kingdom.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The JW organization is a cult, pure and simple, not just in their beliefs but in the way the organization operates to control it's members. These people are the most brainwashed group I have seen, in that they are not even allowed to believe differently that what the organization says for them to. They have no freedom and are told to work to get more members, so they may have eternal life on earth, in the new coming kingdom.

They also practice shunning like the Amish and Mennonites.
My daughter could tell me that she is a Satan worshiper and I would be just like the Father in the Prodigal son parable.
God our Father will never turn his back on us. A father is always a Father.

Most denominations require you to believe as they do. Not much freedom in a Baptist that believes in a Spiritual baptism. Not much freedom in a non "works" based Catholic. Not much freedom in a free will believing Primitive Baptist. Yet none of those are "out there somewhere" cults.
I do agree that Christians should think for themselves as lead by the Spirit even within the defines of their denomination. Unitarain Universalist allow this but at the expense of being not just Christianity. I guess we have to draw the line somewhere.
It's just weird to me that the Holy Spirit leads us all so differently. Perhaps non-denomination or inter-denominational Churches is the answer. They are like the Unitarian Churches except staying in just the defines of Christianity.