Do the unsaved REALLY go to a fiery furnace forever? No.

[welderguy]

So the non elect are outside the gates. The righteous are inside the gates. Where are the , the non righteous elect that are being invited to take of the water of life?

There will be no "unrighteous elect".We have Jesus' imputed righteousness .(Rom.8:33)

The ones that will enter the gates(vs.14) are the elect, and they are the ones who drink of the water of life.(vs.17)

 

[hobbs27]

There will be no "unrighteous elect".We have Jesus' imputed righteousness .(Rom.8:33)

The ones that will enter the gates(vs.14) are the elect, and they are the ones who drink of the water of life.(vs.17)

I don't know. Looks to me as there is a free gift of salvation offered to whosoever will in verse 17.

 

[welderguy]

I don't know. Looks to me as there is a free gift of salvation offered to whosoever will in verse 17.

None will come unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit through regeneration.And the Holy Spirit only draws the elect.It was predestined before the foundation of the world.(Eph.1:4,Rom.9:11)

 

[hobbs27]

None will come unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit through regeneration.And the Holy Spirit only draws the elect.It was predestined before the foundation of the world.(Eph.1:4,Rom.9:11)

So you agree that this is about salvation after Christ returns and the resurrection has taken place?

 

[Artfuldodger]

There will be no "unrighteous elect".We have Jesus' imputed righteousness .(Rom.8:33)

The ones that will enter the gates(vs.14) are the elect, and they are the ones who drink of the water of life.(vs.17)

Interesting concept but this imputed righteousness gives the chosen protection even before their regeneration. Chosen before birth but elected for regeneration years later in their lifetime.
These chosen, protected, elected reprobates are the "unrighteous elect" until they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. I guess we are wondering how the chosen reprobates are protected from the time of their birth until they are filled with the Holy Spirit? Is this the imputed righteousness of Romans 8:33?

 

[welderguy]

So you agree that this is about salvation after Christ returns and the resurrection has taken place?

The things we were discussing from Rev.22 will happen in the future as a result of those things we were discussing in Eph.1 and Rom 9, which took place before creation.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The things we were discussing from Rev.22 will happen in the future as a result of those things we were discussing in Eph.1 and Rom 9, which took place before creation.

The "children of the promise?" Was all of Isaac's offspring elected? I'm trying to define who the unsaved will be that will either die or burn forever.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Deuteronomy 30:19 ...I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live....

why are the HUNDREDS of verses just like the one above so hard for you to grasp? why does this verse NOT say "life and eternal torments"?

please explain to me how a soul can be dead AND alive in eternal torments... at the same time.

the bible says over and over... that the soul that sins MUST die... so thats what i am in agreement in and you call that 'heresy'? but you say that the soul that sins... must LIVE... in eternal torments... and you call me a heretic? hilarious.

The truth is I said the view was heretical, but it appears such trivialities have been inconsequential in this discussion so far, so by all means 'Carry On.'

 

[hobbs27]

There is no doubt that after Jesus comes and the dead ones are resurrected that the church/Bride (which obviously is still here and not raptured away) and the Spirit will send out the invitation to {Whosoever will} To partake in salvation!!

It seems to me this is where we are today, as a Church "inside the gates of the kingdom/garden" Spiritually, we are to say to the lost, Come, take of this salvation freely!






Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Isaiah 55:1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.

1 Corinthians 10:4

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.


John 4: 10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”


John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

Those lost on the outside of the gates are dogs, scorcerers, murderers, etc , etc.Rev. 22: 15
Just like we once were.

1 Corinthians 6:10-11

10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


And here we are in a continual cycle of bidding people to take the gift of Christ and a continually growing kingdom ..forever and ever , Amen!

 

[SemperFiDawg]

nobody yet has explained how a soul can be dead AND alive (in fiery torments) at the same time. why dont we stop resisting the truth and embrace it. its ALL thru the bible

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and heck delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and heck were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

did you see that? "heck" gave up the DEAD that was in it.... and they were cast into the lake of fire which is the 2nd death. there is nothing here about eternal torments... ONLY DEATH.

I'm sorry, but didn't you skip a very significant verse....you know the verse that every critic of "Eternal Punishment" agrees is without a doubt, the ONE that seems the most insurmountable for the anniallationalist to attack?

Rev. 20:10

“The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now the Beast may or may not be a person (depending on who you poll), but I think pretty much everyone concedes "the false prophet IS , and if he is going to be thrown into the lake of fire and tormented day and night forever and ever, and if everyone else who's name isn't written in book of life is going to the same place the most common sense inference is that their punishment will be the same.

Regarding this point: Each and every argument I've ever heard for anniallationalism ( and some were by very brilliant men), when it came to this point, every one of them threw either up their hands and said "So What? Big Deal," or offered up some vague,indefensible, sophmorish, explaination which they, themselves would have never accepted from their students.

You see, no matter how hard you try; no matter how many scriptural contexts you bend, disregard or throw out, no matter how many ad hominem attacks you level against those that hold to the doctrine of EP; that little "forever and ever at the end of Rev. 20:10 is a stake to the heart of anniallationalism.

Like I said in my first post in this thread. It doesn't matter what you think or how you feel about what The Bible says on this. It's not within your dominion to judge this. It's God's and His only. You don't like it because "It doesn't seem fair" and in your eyes "Makes God the Eternal Tormentor" and thus Satan. There's only one way anyone could be capable of making such a judgement of God and that would be if you're equal to God; and that my friend, rest assured, you are not.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

that would be if you're equal to God; and that my friend, rest assured, you are not


bawda boom. There it is.

 

[hobbs27]

that would be if you're equal to God; and that my friend, rest assured, you are not


bawda boom. There it is.

If you believe that argument, then you believe that no man can find the answer in scripture.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Matt 19:16—"And someone came to Him and said, 'Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?'"

Jesus said; you already have eternal life; it's just a matter of where you will spend it."
Wait, that's not what he said, he said;

Matt 19:29-30—"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

 

[Artfuldodger]

Then Jesus said;
Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

What is the opposite of eternal life? What did Adam loose?
Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences.

John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:36—"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 4:14—"...but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 5:24—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 6:40—"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:68—"and Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.'"

John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Gal 6:8—"For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."

Titus 3:7—"so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

1 John 5:11—"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

1 Cor 15:53—"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."

What is the definition of life and it's opposite? We aren't born immortal. We must put on immortality. God has given us a way to put on immortality through his Son Jesus. This is the only way we humans can put on immortality.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

If you believe that argument, then you believe that no man can find the answer in scripture.

Wrong. Straw man argument.

in essence what you're saying is that if one holds to EP then this

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAR308 View Post
but if God throw people in heck for eternity... then God is the king of all tormentors and no different than the devil.

is the ONLY logical conclusion of that belief, and that's patently false. It's just a way of pigeonholing others into accepting "your" view and "your" way of interpreting scripture, and it's wrong to present your views in such a false light. If your views are correct then they should be able to stand on their own merit without having to be propped up by flimsy and downright FALSE assumptions.

Again, the truthis there are a lot of scriptural questions we don't know all the answers to, but that's not the case (in my opinion) with regards to this. Scripture is really clear as far as it goes, regarding the EP of He11, but to say that unless we play God we can't interpret scripture correctly is again fallicius. The truth is, and you have demonstrated this quite well in your reasoning Thank You, unless we play God we have a very difficult time reaching the same conclusions you reach.

 

[hobbs27]

Wrong. Straw man argument.

in essence what you're saying is that if one holds to EP then this



is the ONLY logical conclusion of that belief, and that's patently false. It's just a way of pigeonholing others into accepting "your" view and "your" way of interpreting scripture, and it's wrong to present your views in such a false light. If your views are correct then they should be able to stand on their own merit without having to be propped up by flimsy and downright FALSE assumptions.

Again, the truthis there are a lot of scriptural questions we don't know all the answers to, but that's not the case (in my opinion) with regards to this. Scripture is really clear as far as it goes, regarding the EP of He11, but to say that unless we play God we can't interpret scripture correctly is again fallicius. The truth is, and you have demonstrated this quite well in your reasoning Thank You, unless we play God we have a very difficult time reaching the same conclusions you reach.

My argurment is based on scripture alone. If God wants to torment people forever, I'm ok with it. My argument has stood strong using scripture alone, and while I agree with BAR308 on his conclusion, I do not agree with him on how he arrives at it.

If your argument that I commented on is true, which is , "it's not in our domain to judge this, but God's only", then I can only assume you concede that no man can determine through the scriptures...But the scriptures are clear, even in John 3:16 that we are made to perish, and only through faith in Jesus Christ may we find eternal life.

The belief in eternal torments entered the church through pagan belief, it's not a Christian teaching.

 

[gemcgrew]

The belief in eternal torments entered the church through pagan belief, it's not a Christian teaching.

Hobbs, it does not necessarily follow that the Christian doctrine of He11 is an adaptation of pagan belief, anymore than it shows the Christian answer to it.

If I start from the Atheist use of "flying spaghetti monster" in order to discuss the God of the Bible, I am going to show the differences and correct their understanding.

 

[EverGreen1231]

Most Christians believe that our Lord will take ALL people who fail to "get saved" for whatever reason.. will be tormented by their Creator for all of eternity. But is that what the Bible teaches? No. The "church" has misunderstood a few verses that Jesus spoke about eternal torments. From cover to cover of the Bible... God has given mankind the offer to choose life or death... not a fiery furnace that torments them forever. I will say that i believe there is a fiery furnace that will punish the wicked for their evils... but they will be consumed in the fire just as the Bible says... and they will be "no more" just as the Bible says.

This post is not to argue or debate back and forth. Its for the Elect who have ears to hear but yet have not studied out this doctrine and been delivered from a doctrine of demons.

Check out these verses:
Here’s what the Bible says, and precisely why I have argued that if one were to read the Bible without preexisting ideas of traditional eternal torments, one would not walk away believing in it. Here’s the list:

Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the ungodly perish at all– but live forever in fiery torments. You CANNOT be dead AND alive in torments.

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe the wicked will be “consumed.” Instead, they believe the wicked and tortured and never consumed.

Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.”
This continues the consistency of scripture which tells us the wicked die– not that they are eternally living in a conscious furnace.

Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.”
Of course, if one believes in eternal torments, one doesn’t believe that evil brings death at all, but brings life– in a furnace.

Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.”
If one believes in eternal conscious torments, they don’t believe those who are lost are “destroyed” but again, that they live forever.

Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
To believe in eternal conscious torments means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all.

Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”
This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This is the opposite of eternal life in the furnace.

Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”
Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“

This speaks to ceasing to exist– not eternal life in flames. In the traditional view it will not be “as if they had never been” because they’ll live eternally and still “be alive.”

Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”

Here God is quoted directly– the evildoers are destroyed like straw thrown into the fire, and nothing is left. This shows total annihilation (they no longer exist). To believe in eternal torments, one would have to argue that God was mistaken and that they aren’t destroyed in the fire at all– but live forever in the fire without being consumed, which is the exact opposite of what God claimed.

Eternal torments is NOT in the Old Testament. Instead, they believed that the wicked are destroyed– that they die and do not get resurrected to eternal life. This is the testimony of the whole of scripture. To believe in eternal conscious fiery furnace is to really be at odds with the terminology we see scripture use. These same claims of annihilation and destruction continue in the New Testament:

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in eternal flames.”
Here Jesus himself teaches against eternal torments– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul (which is their life). If one believes in eternal conscious flames, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in flames.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (die).”
Again, to believe in eternal flames, one must believe Jesus was wrong in John 3:16 and that people don’t “perish” at all, but live forever in eternal flames.

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction (death)“
Jesus in his warnings continues with the repetitive testimony of scripture: the consequence of rejecting reconciliation with God is destruction– not everlasting life in torment.

Jesus on a variety of occasions uses the metaphor of fire that consumes not tortures: Matt. 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
There’s that pesky word “destroyed” again. Those who believe in eternal flames don’t believe one is destroyed in eternal flames, but lives there forever. You cant be DEAD and ALIVE at the same time... If you believe this then please explain how a person can be dead or destroyed AND also alive in eternal flames...

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
Getting repetitive yet? Seems like the Bible is getting pretty clear that the consequence of rejecting God is destruction, not eternal life in eternal flames.

1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
There’s that word again that doesn’t mean tortured in eternal flames, but just means what it says– destroyed.

2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
Again, if Paul meant eternal flames, he should have said it– seems like all Cristians always talk about eternal flames... and not death or destruction.

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
Growing up we’re taught that the “wages of sin is eternal flames” but nope– it’s perishing, dying, being destroyed.. the opposite of eternal life in eternal flames.

Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
Another version of the same term… destroyed.

James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
Seems like every biblical author wants us to understand to be “destroyed” is the natural consequence… there is NO writer in the Bible (accept for Jesus) to mention anything about eternal flames... maybe what Jesus spoke was in Parables... and not to be taken literally.

Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”
Those who believe in eternal conscious eternal flames don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in eternal flames.

Rev 20:14 is clear that they die– they don’t live forever in eternal flames at all.

Look at this:
Jude 7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example (to the wicked) suffering the punishment of ETERNAL FIRE.

What was "eternal" in this passage? was the fire eternal OR the punishment? well, the punishment was eternal not the fire even tho it says "eternal fire"... Why? because sodom is NOT still burning today but yet the punishment (death or destruction) is eternal... So when Jesus DID mention eternal fire He was saying that the punishment would be eternal... the death or destruction was eternal not the fire itself. the wicked will be like sodom... destroyed... to cease to exist. dead. gone. but NOT burning forever...

Revelation 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

What happens when their is a death? do people continue on living? No, they are DEAD. plain and simple. Whats the first death? when we die our normal death. The second death is when we die again and are consumed in the fire and destroyed for good.

So for the Elect who have ears to hear... i hope you can see this. Its a great relief when God delivers us from false teachings and traditions of men... much peace!

I would advise a deep reading and weighting of what words actually mean from the time in which they were written (this would mean digging into the history of the Biblical transcriptions), this is referred to as textualism. Your whole argument is built on the guise that destruction cannot be equal to torment; that death cannot lend itself to existence. Does scripture not say that the inward man is renewed daily? Does it not say that to be dead is to be separated from all Love? You go so far as to say these bring contradiction to God's word itself. Who would be the author of that confusion? Life is not equal to existence: Death and destruction do not require it's exclusion. The argument is fallacy and built upon rigid logic and intellectualism that lacks sufficient nuance to be considered 'solid' enough to eliminate many years of accepted, and reliably, biblically constructed, beliefs.

 

[WaltL1]

You guys dont have to rely on interpretation of scripture. Its pretty well documented where the concept of he11/eternal punishment/torment originated and when and how it made its way into Christianity.
Couple of examples -

The concept of eternal torment in he11 is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew and Greek Manuscripts of the Bible, but it is found in the writings of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans. For example, Plato (427-347 BC) discusses the concept of he11 in his dialogue ‘Gorgias’ where he speaks of eternal punishment.
There can be no doubt that belief in eternal punishment in he11 was a pagan belief embraced and Christianised by the church in Rome in the early years of the history of Christianity. Consider this quote from The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, page 96: Retrieved April 29, 2007.
“During the first five centuries of Christianity, there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.”
It was indeed the Church at Rome which first taught the pagan doctrine of endless punishment of the wicked, under the umbrella of Christianity. The Roman Catholic Latin Church Fathers, Tertullian (160-220 AD), Jerome (347-420 AD) and Augustine (354-430 AD), all strongly believed in the doctrine of he11. These early Latin Church Fathers are highly venerated Roman Catholic saints who believed that God’s punishment of unbelievers (all those who reject Roman Catholicism) would be in a he11 of everlasting torment.

Another -

Paul still had no conception of a he11 of everlasting torment or a heaven elsewhere than on earth. People who were not "saved" would simply die. They wouldn't have everlasting life. They would perish and never be heard of or seen again. They would not go to a he11; they would just be dead.

By the second century, however, the church leaders, in their zeal to convert people to become followers of Yeshua, read references to fire and judgment in the Bible to mean that people who did not convert to their version of Yeshua's theology would not simply die--they would be thrown into a fire that would burn eternally. They based this belief on the pagan descriptions of a he11 at the time.

The first adoption of the pagan beliefs by a Christian writer was in the Apocalypse of Peter, probably written between 125 and 150 CE that remained in various church lists as a canonical text for centuries. It contains what the author claimed were the words of Yeshua as he instructed Peter after the resurrection about the signs of the end times. It also contains a variety of punishments awaiting sinners in he11 and the pleasures of heaven. The descriptions clearly came from Homer, Virgil, Plato, and Orphic and Pythagorean traditions. The he11 myth wasn't in the Old Testament or Christian tradition before this writer developed it out of pagan traditions.

And interestingly enough -

This is a statement from Pope John Paul II made on July 28, 1999. He11 is not a place of fire and eternal suffering, he says. He describes it as separation from God, chosen by people using their free will, and only symbolically described as a fiery place of torment as a strongly portrayed reminder of the freedom from death believers have. He refers to the descriptions of torment as "improper use of Biblical images":

The images of he11 that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, he11 indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘he11’” (n. 1033).

. . . The thought of he11 — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm 8:15; Gal 4:6).
(John Paul II, General Audience, July 28, 1999. Retrieved from http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/
documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html May 21, 2007).

 

[welderguy]

Well, there you have it folks.
Surely an agnostic AND the Roman Catholic Church cannot BOTH be wrong about this.