Do the unsaved REALLY go to a fiery furnace forever? No.

WaltL1

Senior Member
:huh:Well, there you have it folks.
Surely an agnostic AND the Roman Catholic Church cannot BOTH be wrong about this. :hair:
Got the info from Christian history websites.
Why does information scare you so much? Its just information, ignore it if you like. Which you apparently do.
Heres an interesting tidbit too -
There is a Norse Goddess (pre-christianity) who was the ruler of the dead and whose job it was to determine what type of life they should have in the underworld.
Guess what her name was -
Hel
 

centerpin fan

Moderator
There is a Norse Goddess (pre-christianity) who was the ruler of the dead and whose job it was to determine what type of life they should have in the underworld.
Guess what her name was -
Hel


Hel ... or Hil?


Hillary-devil.jpg
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
You guys dont have to rely on interpretation of scripture. Its pretty well documented where the concept of he11/eternal punishment/torment originated and when and how it made its way into Christianity.
Couple of examples -

Another -

And interestingly enough -


Very good. Some folks find it too hard to be berean, and easier to just accept status quo.
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
Walt,

I just don't trust internet sources without knowing who they are.
I don’t know for sure that I found the same sources: but I believe the quotes are there.

1st) http://www.godsplanforall.com/paganoriginofhell
A Universalist website; not one that most believers would consider scripturally accurate.

2nd) http://30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm
A website that also teaches that Paul was not a Christian.

3rd) http://johnmichaeltalbot.com/what-in-the-CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored-is-happening
(definitely not the same website, but shows the misuse of the statement by the one quoted).
This blogger quotes John Paul II’s statement in its entirety to support his anti-annihilationist message.
A reading of the Pope's statement shows that he is supporting the concept of eternal punishment.

I’m afraid that I cannot consider this “well documented”.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
How is it "very good" that pagans had a more accurate understanding of eternal punishment than Hobbs the theologian?

That's funny. If you accept what the Pagans believed as in ECT, then they knew more than Jesus and the Apostles, because they never taught it.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Walt,

I just don't trust internet sources without knowing who they are.
I don’t know for sure that I found the same sources: but I believe the quotes are there.

1st) http://www.godsplanforall.com/paganoriginofhell
A Universalist website; not one that most believers would consider scripturally accurate.

2nd) http://30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm
A website that also teaches that Paul was not a Christian.

3rd) http://johnmichaeltalbot.com/what-in-the-CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored-is-happening
(definitely not the same website, but shows the misuse of the statement by the one quoted).
This blogger quotes John Paul II’s statement in its entirety to support his anti-annihilationist message.
A reading of the Pope's statement shows that he is supporting the concept of eternal punishment.

I’m afraid that I cannot consider this “well documented”.
What would you consider well documented?
Pagan beliefs (pre-christianity) are well documented and they talk about eternal suffering.
A reading of the Pope's statement shows that he is supporting the concept of eternal punishment.
It was the definition of eternal punishment that was the point. Which I think was pretty clear.
As far as "who" the sources are, agreeing or not agreeing with their beliefs doesnt make all the information contained therein false.
For example and I'll just pick a few to make my point -
True or False -
but it is found in the writings of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans. For example, Plato (427-347 BC) discusses the concept of he11 in his dialogue ‘Gorgias’ where he speaks of eternal punishment.
True or False -
Consider this quote from The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, page 96: Retrieved April 29, 2007.
“During the first five centuries of Christianity, there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.”
True or False (did the Pope say this?) -
The images of he11 that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, he11 indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy
So far 2 of you have downplayed or outright called the information inaccurate but I havent seen a thing to prove them wrong other than an insult or two and "I cant consider this well documented".
I thought it was pretty common knowldege that the "eternal torment in he11" thing wasnt the original teachings.
By the way I didnt present anything as FACT, I said it was well documented. And it is. The vast majority of scholars (that I have read) agree.
And I assure you Im not trying to be difficult. I think the major point was interpretating scripture doesnt take into account how these "ideas" got into scripture to begin with. The Bible took like, what, 1600 years to write? Alot happened in that time.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
That's funny. If you accept what the Pagans believed as in ECT, then they knew more than Jesus and the Apostles, because they never taught it.
Meaning Jesus and the Apostles never taught it right?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Meaning Jesus and the Apostles never taught it right?
Right. Jesus never taught eternal torments He taught eternal life vs perishment. John 3:16. The Apostles never preached ECT ..ever!
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
You guys dont have to rely on interpretation of scripture. Its pretty well documented where the concept of he11/eternal punishment/torment originated and when and how it made its way into Christianity.Couple of examples -

Another -

And interestingly enough -

What would you consider well documented?
Pagan beliefs (pre-christianity) are well documented and they talk about eternal suffering.

It was the definition of eternal punishment that was the point. Which I think was pretty clear.
As far as "who" the sources are, agreeing or not agreeing with their beliefs doesnt make all the information contained therein false.

[But how do they use the information? That's the point.]

For example and I'll just pick a few to make my point -
True or False -

True or False -

True or False (did the Pope say this?) -

So far 2 of you have downplayed or outright called the information inaccurate but I havent seen a thing to prove them wrong other than an insult or two and "I cant consider this well documented".
I thought it was pretty common knowldege that the "eternal torment in he11" thing wasnt the original teachings.
By the way I didnt present anything as FACT, I said it was well documented. And it is. The vast majority of scholars (that I have read) agree.
And I assure you Im not trying to be difficult. I think the major point was interpretating scripture doesnt take into account how these "ideas" got into scripture to begin with.
The Bible took like, what, 1600 years to write? Alot happened in that time.

Yes, that is the major point**. And I don't see that information indicating that ECT was known in pagan cultures prior to the revelations of Christ's incarnation supports the idea that it "got into scripture" by adopting pagan beliefs. There is much in the OT that is further revealed in the NT.

**The point you want to see is difficult to avoid, which makes the Holy Spirit very helpful.

Just as an aside: what influence does Christian teaching have on those who interpret ancient pagan pictographs?
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Yes, that is the major point**. And I don't see that information indicating that ECT was known in pagan cultures prior to the revelations of Christ's incarnation supports the idea that it "got into scripture" by adopting pagan beliefs. There is much in the OT that is further revealed in the NT.

**The point you want to see is difficult to avoid, which makes the Holy Spirit very helpful.

Just as an aside: what influence does Christian teaching have on those who interpret ancient pagan pictographs?
And I don't see that information indicating that ECT was known in pagan cultures
Plato (427-347 BC) discusses the concept of he11 in his dialogue ‘Gorgias’ where he speaks of eternal punishment.
There is much in the OT that is further revealed in the NT.
When you consider that neither Jesus or the Apostles ever taught of an eternal torment in addition to the fact the original word Sheol means basically the grave or place of the dead with no consciesness or awareness, I'm not sure what is "revealed" in the NT to change that.
As you know what did happen was Sheol was replaced with word he11 in translation.
So....
Eternal torment wasnt taught originally.
The concept wasnt in the OT.
The "idea" of eternal torment came later.
The Pagans DID believe in the concept of eternal torment PRIOR to Christianity.
Other Pagan beliefs/concepts were intigrated into Christianity......
I know what those add up to me. And to the vast majority of scholars.
**The point you want to see is difficult to avoid, which makes the Holy Spirit very helpful.
Thats just it. I dont WANT to see any point one way or the other. History is what it is.
Just as an aside: what influence does Christian teaching have on those who interpret ancient pagan pictographs?
Cant answer that. I assume it would depend on those doing the interpreting and if and how much they let their preconceived notions/beliefs affect what they are looking at.
Take you guys for example and interpreting scripture. Everybody pretty much sees what they want to see.
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Right. Jesus never taught eternal torments He taught eternal life vs perishment. John 3:16. The Apostles never preached ECT ..ever!

Might want to read a little further:

John3:36
" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of God abideth on him."

Explain how you twist wrath into nothing more than a perishing.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
Might want to read a little further:

John3:36
" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of God abideth on him."

Explain how you twist wrath into nothing more than a perishing.
It is a new and improved wrath, one that satisfies man centeredness. :D
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Might want to read a little further:

John3:36
" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of God abideth on him."

Explain how you twist wrath into nothing more than a perishing.

Do you understand the opposite of life?
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Do you understand the opposite of life?

Uhh?.... death?


What about this?:

Matt.25:46
" And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Do you understand the difference between these two concepts?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
What did Adam lose in the fall? Part of the image of God and eternal physical & spiritual life. Jesus was made in the image of God to replace this lost image man once had. Jesus made it possible for us to once again have the image of God and eternal life.

What ever it is that Adam lost by the fall is what Jesus replaced.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Uhh?.... death?


What about this?:

Matt.25:46
" And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Do you understand the difference between these two concepts?

Yes. I love to deerhunt. I love watching young bucks grow into mature bucks. What I don't like is when someone kills a good young buck I've been watching, because when they do..It's over! Forever, He'll never grow anymore!
Death = everlasting punishment.

You realize yet there's little to no scripture supporting ECT?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
What did Adam lose in the fall? Part of the image of God and eternal physical & spiritual life. Jesus was made in the image of God to replace this lost image man once had. Jesus made it possible for us to once again have the image of God and eternal life.

What ever it is that Adam lost by the fall is what Jesus replaced.

Im trying to straighten out some JW's on another site about this right now. .

God told Adam in the day he eat, he would die. Adam was cast out of the garden that day..Adam died spiritually, he lost communion with God, that death reigned from Adam to Moses..{Moses} meaning the entire old covenant.

Christ put us back in communion with God by forgiving our sins..that God could dwell with us and us with Him.
 
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