Do the unsaved REALLY go to a fiery furnace forever? No.

SemperFiDawg

Senior Member
A concise excerpt from


http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html

Warning!!! Some viewers may find this article lacking in that it doesnt cite any Pagan, Neo-pagan, Athiestic, or pantheistic sources. Nor does it cite Elvis, Aliens, Illumanati. There is no mention of Roswell or of a conspiracy theory among the early reformers to boost church attendance. The only source cited is Scripture. I realize the concept of using Scripture to interpret Scripture is a foreign concept to some and downright detestable to others, but it's pretty much agreed upon to be the most accurate method (Sorry Google and Wiki faithful). Now on with it.
Question: "Is annihilationism biblical?"

Answer: Annihilationism is the belief that unbelievers will not experience an eternity of suffering in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, but will instead be “extinguished” after death. For many, annihilationism is an attractive belief because of the awfulness of the idea of people spending eternity in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored. While there are some passages that seem to argue for annihilationism, a comprehensive look at what the Bible says about the destiny of the wicked reveals the fact that punishment in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored is eternal. A belief in annihilationism results from a misunderstanding of one or more of the following doctrines: 1) the consequences of sin, 2) the justice of God, 3) the nature of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.

In relation to the nature of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he/she would be almost instantly consumed. However, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. It is not simply a human body being cast into the lake of fire; it is a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body prepared for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.

Eternity is another aspect which annihilationists fail to fully comprehend. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,” does not by definition mean “eternal.” It specifically refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time. However, it is clear that in New Testament, aionion is sometimes used to refer to an eternal length of time. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” It is clear that these three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)? The most convincing evidence for the eternality of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored is Matthew 25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored forever.

Another frequent objection to the eternality of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored by annihilationists is that it would be unjust for God to punish unbelievers in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored for eternity for a finite amount of sin. How could it be fair for God to take a person who lived a sinful, 70-year life, and punish him/her for all of eternity? The answer is that our sin bears an eternal consequence because it is committed against an eternal God. When King David committed the sins of adultery and murder he stated, “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah; how could David claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being. As a result, all sin against Him is worthy of an eternal punishment. It is not a matter of the length of time we sin, but the character of the God against whom we sin.

If any of you guys would like to actually critique any of these three points ...you know....using just Scripture, it would be refreshing.
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Yes. I love to deerhunt. I love watching young bucks grow into mature bucks. What I don't like is when someone kills a good young buck I've been watching, because when they do..It's over! Forever, He'll never grow anymore!
Death = everlasting punishment.

You realize yet there's little to no scripture supporting ECT?

Ha.There's a small problem with your little analogy.The deer just dies and it's all over for his suffering.
But when a goat dies,his suffering just begins.

difference:

the dear encountered death.The goat encountered eternal torment.There's a distinction.


Strong's exhaustive concordance:

everlasting /Greek Aionios-perpetual,eternal,for ever

punishment /Greek kolasis-penal infliction,torment


put the two together and what do you have?
Perpetual,eternal torment for ever.

From Merriam-Webster dictionary:

perpetual
adjective per·pet·u·al
: continuing forever or for a very long time without stopping


If you still can't or won't see this,I can't help you.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
A concise excerpt from


http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html

Warning!!! Some viewers may find this article lacking in that it doesnt cite any Pagan, Neo-pagan, Athiestic, or pantheistic sources. Nor does it cite Elvis, Aliens, Illumanati. There is no mention of Roswell or of a conspiracy theory among the early reformers to boost church attendance. The only source cited is Scripture. I realize the concept of using Scripture to interpret Scripture is a foreign concept to some and downright detestable to others, but it's pretty much agreed upon to be the most accurate method (Sorry Google and Wiki faithful). Now on with it.


If any of you guys would like to actually critique any of these three points ...you know....using just Scripture, it would be refreshing.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.:yawn:
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Ha.There's a small problem with your little analogy.The deer just dies and it's all over for his suffering.
But when a goat dies,his suffering just begins.

difference:

the dear encountered death.The goat encountered eternal torment.There's a distinction.


Strong's exhaustive concordance:

everlasting /Greek Aionios-perpetual,eternal,for ever

punishment /Greek kolasis-penal infliction,torment


put the two together and what do you have?
Perpetual,eternal torment for ever.

From Merriam-Webster dictionary:

perpetual
adjective per·pet·u·al
: continuing forever or for a very long time without stopping


If you still can't or won't see this,I can't help you.


When that deer was given the death penalty, it experienced eternal torment forever. Not that it was going to be hurting for every moment for eternity but because it's torment killed it forever and ever. That is the second death!
 

welderguy

Senior Member
When that deer was given the death penalty, it experienced eternal torment forever. Not that it was going to be hurting for every moment for eternity but because it's torment killed it forever and ever. That is the second death!

Wow.

What about this:

Rev.14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

If they only consumed away,then there would be a rest from their torment.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
A concise excerpt from


http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html

Warning!!! Some viewers may find this article lacking in that it doesnt cite any Pagan, Neo-pagan, Athiestic, or pantheistic sources. Nor does it cite Elvis, Aliens, Illumanati. There is no mention of Roswell or of a conspiracy theory among the early reformers to boost church attendance. The only source cited is Scripture. I realize the concept of using Scripture to interpret Scripture is a foreign concept to some and downright detestable to others, but it's pretty much agreed upon to be the most accurate method (Sorry Google and Wiki faithful). Now on with it.


If any of you guys would like to actually critique any of these three points ...you know....using just Scripture, it would be refreshing.

I'm a little disappointed that it didn't mention Hitler.;)
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I wonder what happened when "death" was thrown into this physical Lake of fire?

Where do the spirits of the souls of the unsaved go to await their judgement into the Lake of Fire? Let's say an unsaved person died 1,000 years ago and the 2nd coming is 1,000 years from now. What scripture tells us the kind of torment they are experiencing in their holding cell? It must be flames or else they have temporarily escaped their eternal burning torment for 2,000 years.
They won't have any rest, day or night, in their holding cells and it's not a physical place as the grave is.
So we have an eternally burning holding cell for unsaved spirits awaiting their eternally physical burning place for their resurrected physical bodies.

I'm not trying to say this isn't possible or that it's not gonna happen but i'd also like some scriptures. I too have always viewed Heaven and He!! as physical and spiritual places. I just get confused about the interim between physical death, spiritual death, and my resurrected physical eternal life or eternal punishment.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Ha.There's a small problem with your little analogy.The deer just dies and it's all over for his suffering.
But when a goat dies,his suffering just begins.

difference:

the dear encountered death.The goat encountered eternal torment.There's a distinction.


Strong's exhaustive concordance:

everlasting /Greek Aionios-perpetual,eternal,for ever

punishment /Greek kolasis-penal infliction,torment


put the two together and what do you have?
Perpetual,eternal torment for ever.

From Merriam-Webster dictionary:

perpetual
adjective per·pet·u·al
: continuing forever or for a very long time without stopping


If you still can't or won't see this,I can't help you.
Strong's exhaustive concordance:

everlasting /Greek Aionios-perpetual,eternal,for ever

punishment /Greek kolasis-penal infliction,torment


put the two together and what do you have?
Perpetual,eternal torment for ever.
You accidently left out some of Strong's definition -
kolasis: correction
Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Short Definition: chastisement, punishment
Definition: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation
Its not just torment.
So -
perpetual eternal chastisement or
perpetual eternal punishment or
perpetual eternal torment
Or all the above, one of the above, some of the above

Torment is alot more satisfying though, I get it.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
(quote)Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” It is clear that these three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different?"(quote)

Is that another trinity? Good question, why is their fate any different? They are created beings. They aren't eternal. They may have had immortality at some point but they aren't eternal. Immortals can lose this gift from God.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but do not have power to destroy the life; rather, fear Him Who has the power to destroy both life(soul/spirit) and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28).

God has this power. So for some reason he may destroy both life and body as in both physical and spiritual death or he may grant one to continue in either life(spirit), body, or both.
He can elect Satan to eternal burning forever and man to die in both body and life. God has this power but I don't know why Satan's punishment is any different. Then again I don't know why Satan has power.
 
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Artfuldodger

Senior Member
"For even as the Father raises the dead and gives life, in the same way also, the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son so that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father." (John 5:21-23).

I think these verses let us know that that spirits can die. That without being raised from the dead, one dies both spiritually and physically.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but do not have power to destroy the life; rather, fear Him Who has the power to destroy both life(soul/spirit) and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28).
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
And I don't see that information indicating that ECT was known in pagan cultures prior to the revelations of Christ's incarnation supports the idea that it "got into scripture" by adopting pagan beliefs.

Did you miss part of my sentence when you quoted only the highlighted portion?

When you consider that neither Jesus or the Apostles ever taught of an eternal torment in addition to the fact the original word Sheol means basically the grave or place of the dead with no consciesness or awareness, I'm not sure what is "revealed" in the NT to change that.
As you know what did happen was Sheol was replaced with word he11 in translation.
So....
Eternal torment wasnt taught originally.
The concept wasnt in the OT.
The "idea" of eternal torment came later.
The Pagans DID believe in the concept of eternal torment PRIOR to Christianity.
Other Pagan beliefs/concepts were intigrated into Christianity......
I know what those add up to me. And to the vast majority of scholars.

Thats just it. I dont WANT to see any point one way or the other. History is what it is.

Cant answer that. I assume it would depend on those doing the interpreting and if and how much they let their preconceived notions/beliefs affect what they are looking at.
Take you guys for example and interpreting scripture. Everybody pretty much sees what they want to see.

First a confession and apology: When I read the 3rd quote of your post #259, having just completed the 1st and 2nd, my old decrepit brain didn’t make the shift it should have. That author was indeed addressing the nature of eternal punishment and not its reality.

Thats just it. I dont WANT to see any point one way or the other. History is what it is.

We see ourselves differently.

Do not historians choose the "facts" they will emphasis? Do not historians attribute different motivations to the events of history? They don't even agree on dates many times.


I have extensively redacted the statement by John Paul II which is referenced in the quote that you posted earlier to eliminate statements with which I do not agree, and in some cases, where I am not familiar enough with the teaching of the Roman Catholic church to be certain of the meaning. I attempted to indicate where this was done. In some cases this has radically changed the meaning, and anyone wishing to know what John Paul II said should not rely on the following.

In attempting to retain as much of the statement as possible, I may have inadvertently left something with which I do not agree, however, I do believe that this material, taken from John Paul II’s statement, will respond to most, if not all, of you statements.

• “Wednesday 28 July 1999
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
1. …

In a theological sense however, he11 is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life.

2. To describe this reality Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez 28:8; 31:14; Jb 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).

The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death … .

… By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its “unquenchable fire” (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that he11 is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk 16:19-31).

The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for “eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thes 1:9).

3. The images of he11 that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, he11 indicates the state of those …[are separated] … from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever … . This state of … exclusion from communion with God … is called ‘CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored’” (n. 1033).

… Darnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, ... confirmed with death that seals his choice forever. God’s judgment ratifies this state.

4. Christian faith teaches that … it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a “yes” to God.

Darnation remains … , but we are not granted, … , the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of he11 — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of … the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm 8:15; Gal 4:6).

- Pope John Paul II


Man, that was quite a chore, cleaning up his language for the sensors.
 
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SemperFiDawg

Senior Member
My argurment is based on scripture alone. If God wants to torment people forever, I'm ok with it. My argument has stood strong using scripture alone, and while I agree with BAR308 on his conclusion, I do not agree with him on how he arrives at it.

If your argument that I commented on is true, which is , "it's not in our domain to judge this, but God's only", then I can only assume you concede that no man can determine through the scriptures...But the scriptures are clear, even in John 3:16 that we are made to perish, and only through faith in Jesus Christ may we find eternal life.

The belief in eternal torments entered the church through pagan belief, it's not a Christian teaching.

My argurment is based on scripture alone. If God wants to torment people forever, I'm ok with it.

I'm sure He's relieved to hear that.

My argument has stood strong using scripture alone,

It's an arguement founded on, at best, a poor understanding of some basic Christian doctrines; held together by shoddy reasoning, false assumptions, and sad to say, in some cases, intellectual dishonesty. It's logical inferences are self-contradictory, heretical and anathema to THE very core belief of Christianity. In short it's an intellectually absurd lie sold by the Devil to under -informed/ill-informed Christians.


If your argument that I commented on is true, which is , "it's not in our domain to judge this, but God's only", then I can only assume you concede that no man can determine through the scriptures..


You assume wrong. Maybe you should review what I typed keeping in mind the difference between interpreting scripture and judging God. Perhaps it will become a bit clearer.

The belief in eternal torments entered the church through pagan belief, it's not a Christian teaching.

How you can make a statement like this in light of Rev. 21 is beyond my capacity to comprehend. Are you that blind?Is your ego so big that you simply can't accept the possibility that you are wrong on this, or do you have absolutely no regard for the concepts of honesty and truth? Honestly, I don't know one legitimate Theological scholar WHO HOLDS TO ANNIALLATIONALISM who would make such a blatantly false statement. Unbelievable.
 
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hobbs27

Senior Member
Wow.

What about this:

Rev.14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

If they only consumed away,then there would be a rest from their torment.

Again, this is not about individual judgement, but about a national judgement. Here is an example:

Isaiah 34:10 It will <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(U)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314U"></SUP>not be quenched night or day;
Its <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(V)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314V"></SUP>smoke will go up forever.
From <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(W)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314W"></SUP>generation to generation it will be desolate;
<SUP class=crossreference data-link='(X)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314X"></SUP>None will pass through it forever and ever.

Now, the above verse is abot the destruction of Edom. Heres all the info you need on Edom. http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/fulfill.shtml

The people {nation} that worshipped the beast was Jerusalem. The beast was Rome and Jerusalem was the Harlot. Judah was also one of these cities that smoke was to rise forever. The language used in Revelation and Isaiah is apocalyptic, its over exagerated!
 
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hobbs27

Senior Member
I'm sure He's relieved to hear that.



It's an arguement founded on, at best, a poor understanding of some basic Christian doctrines; held together by shoddy reasoning, false assumptions, and sad to say, in some cases, intellectual dishonesty. It's logical inferences are self-contradictory, heretical and anathema to THE very core belief of Christianity. In short it's an intellectually absurd lie sold by the Devil to under -informed/ill-informed Christians.





You assume wrong. Maybe you should review what I typed keeping in mind the difference between interpreting scripture and judging God. Perhaps it will become a bit clearer.



How you can make a statement like this in light of Rev. 21 is beyond my capacity to comprehend. Are you that blind?Is your ego so big that you simply can't accept the possibility that you are wrong on this, or do you have absolutely no regard for the concepts of honesty and truth? Honestly, I don't know one legitimate Theological scholar WHO HOLDS TO ANNIALLATIONALISM who would make such a blatantly false statement. Unbelievable.


Who alone has immortality? Where does it come from?

1Timothy 6:
<SUP class=versenum>12 </SUP>Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
<SUP class=versenum>13 </SUP>I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
<SUP class=versenum>14 </SUP>That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
<SUP class=versenum>15 </SUP>Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
<SUP class=versenum>16 </SUP>Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Again, this is not about individual judgement, but about a national judgement. Here is an example:

Isaiah 34:10 It will <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(U)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314U"></SUP>not be quenched night or day;
Its <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(V)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314V"></SUP>smoke will go up forever.
From <SUP class=crossreference data-link='(W)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314W"></SUP>generation to generation it will be desolate;
<SUP class=crossreference data-link='(X)' data-cr="#cen-NASB-18314X"></SUP>None will pass through it forever and ever.

Now, the above verse is abot the destruction of Edom. Heres all the info you need on Edom. http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/fulfill.shtml

The people {nation} that worshipped the beast was Jerusalem. The beast was Rome and Jerusalem was the Harlot. Judah was also one of these cities that smoke was to rise forever. The language used in Revelation and Isaiah is apocalyptic, its over exagerated!

You're going to have a hard time convincing us of that because of our indoctrination and yet it is as clear as a bell in your mind. It makes the line from point A to point B much straighter yet we are stuck to believe as our indoctrination.
It must get frustrating at times. I can feel you pain. I wouldn't say you should reconsider Christianity though.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
You're going to have a hard time convincing us of that because of our indoctrination and yet it is as clear as a bell in your mind. It makes the line from point A to point B much straighter yet we are stuck to believe as our indoctrination.
It must get frustrating at times. I can feel you pain. I wouldn't say you should reconsider Christianity though.

Maybe. Does it matter if a national destruction is past or future according to the language here? It's obviously national isn't it?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Maybe. Does it matter if a national destruction is past or future according to the language here? It's obviously national isn't it?

Beyond salvation and a belief in Jesus, I'm not sure what matters anymore. I was more at peace before I started gaining knowledge. Free will, Election, predestination, fate, Trinitarian, Oneness, Unity, everlasting death, everlasting life, eternal spirits, becoming like God, pre-existing children of God, image of God as flesh, physical or spiritual resurrections, Heaven on earth, God's Kingdom now or future, and the 2nd coming not being in the future is a whole lot of knowledge.
I'm still trying to figure out how much science God uses within his creation.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Maybe. Does it matter if a national destruction is past or future according to the language here? It's obviously national isn't it?

I agree it's obviously national and in the past. Even if it's not in the past it is still national.
People have a hard time distinguishing the verses related to a nation and interpret them to mean individuals.
I once thought they were the same because nations are made up of individuals but I now see the difference.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
I agree it's obviously national and in the past. Even if it's not in the past it is still national.
People have a hard time distinguishing the verses related to a nation and interpret them to mean individuals.
I once thought they were the same because nations are made up of individuals but I now see the difference.

Ok, thanks.
 
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